flatten powder horn??

[Bigmon]

I am sure this topic has had to have been gone over on here.  But I searched youtube and actually could not fine anything on how to boil and soften cow or buffalo horn?
I have been told by some that you must boil in oil, others say water is fine.
I want to flatten some and cut into pieces to make hunters stars and other in-lays for rifles.  Also have always wanted to try and flatten some powder horns.
Always gotta be doing something the hard way.
Any advice or directions to web sites etc would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

[longcruise]

I have not had much luck softening horn by boiling in water.  Your max temp with water will be the boiling point of the water at your elevation, so around 200 to 212 degrees.  Oil, OTOH, will reach higher temps.  But, I have not done the oil system yet so don't take my comments as a recommendation!!!!!!

[Gun Butcher]

I successfully flattened horn for years using the water method and I will say they should be on the thin side to accomplish this but, after being told about using hot oil , at about 325 to 350 degrees, I have become a true believer. I have been able to flatten pieces as much as a 1/4" thick using hot oil. the trick is to not leave it in the oil to long or you will have French fried horn which is no good to anyone. I am sure some others will jump in but my advice would be to use the oil.

Ron

[Spentprimer]

Well, now is the time to call me nuts for suggesting this.  I have not tried it, but, I think it will work, so I will suggest and then wait for the experimenters to report back.

In a previous life I was a tonsorialist.  Human hair and other horn products, including your own skin, are made of Carbon, Oxygen, Nitrogen, Hydrogen and Sulfur and can be softened by using ammonium thioglycolate.  What? Where am I going to get that stuff?  Head down to Wal-Mart where they sell home DIY Perm kits for the Mrs.  The ammonium thioglycolate is basically used as permanent solution for making curls on your lovely lass.

Processing times for hair are on the order of 15 to 30 minutes.  But, hair may only be .008" or so thick and it will be surrounded by the solution, additional times will be required before putting on the neutralizer.  By placing the horn so as to have it wetted by the solution on all sides (inside and outside) will help to speed the process.  The PH of this solution ranges from 9.0 to 9.5 and is much milder than other solutions used for hair straightening.  These straightening solutions may speed things up, but, may damage the  surface of the horn.

Once the horn is shaped as desired, rinse with cold water for at least 20 minutes and 40 minutes is probably better.  Then apply neutralizer and allow more time than the processing time you have derived by experimentation.

OK, I will stand back and dive for cover now.

[Ky-Flinter]

Spentprimer,
Please try your proposed method and report back.

In my experience horn that is shaped or pressed after boiling in water wants to go back to it's original shape.  Maybe not all the way back to original, but enough to make one curse.

Now, boiling in oil, as mentioned above, is the way to go.  Go to your local grocery store or WalMart and buy a big bottle of cooking oil and a confectioner's thermometer, one that goes up to 450 degrees or so.  I heat my oil in a metal coffee can on a Coleman stove, OUTSIDE and away from all things I do not wish to burn down.  BE CAREFUL.  I wear long pants, long sleeves, safety glasses and welders gloves.  Have your press or the sizing cone you are going to use near at hand.  Also have a large pair of pliers to move the hot oil/coffee can as needed.  I clip the thermometer on the side of the can, with the end submerged in the oil.  Fire up the stove and watch the temp.  When it approaches 350, throttle back on the flame, until the temp is steady at 350.  DO NOT heat the oil above 400 degrees.  Cooking oil flashpoint is supposed to well over 500 degrees, but I don't want to find out.  Dip the horn in the hot oil for 15, 20, 30 seconds, depending on the thickness of the horn.  If you see the horn out-gassing bubbles, it's cooking, remove at once.  Test how pliable it is.  If it's soft, put the horn in your press or insert your sizing cone.

-Ron

[Horner75]

Ditto on what Gun Butcher recommended.  Hot NOT boiling oil is the easiest way to flatten horn.

All of these I flattened using hot vegetable oil.  BE VERY CAREFUL and wear gloves and eye protection!

Rick

[G. Elsenbeck]

Both Ron's methods are correct if you're looking to shape some horns for powder horns or cups.  However, as I read your post further I see you want just to flatten some horn to use as inlays.  The real reason to use hot oil vs boiling water is the temperature you need to keep your piece of horn in a final shape.  Either as a flat piece or otherwise shaped/formed.....  I would imagine if you want to start with a nice flatten piece of horn for inlays you will want to use the hot oil method.  You certainly wouldn't want that nice horn inlay 'popping' out from your work let alone a customer of yours.  Now as to how to physically flatten that piece of horn.....do you have a press or means to clamp a hot piece of horn?  I know, just another can of worms.  Enjoy the journey.

Happy horning.
Gary

[Down South]

So the oil and temp advice is right on!  Now it's time to hit the antique shops and find an old book press in good working order.  They make a fine horn press.  I have a big old monster book press that it takes two guys to move around.  Works great!  Good luck.

[Bigmon]

Great advice guys, I very much appreciate it.
I have the press part covered, just need to get some oil and a thermometer I guess.
I just wonder why I have to always do things the hard way??
I am a glutton for punishment!!
Thanks

[Gun Butcher]

Big mon or anyone else that is interested try your local thrift shop for a Fry Daddy. I got mine still in the box ,new for $10. mine doesn't have a thermometer but its a good idea to have a candy thermometer anyway.

[G. Elsenbeck]

Another great idea Ron.

[Rick Sheets]

Using a Fry Daddy for softening horn is no more dangerous than cooking fries. But using eye protection and welders gloves only makes sense. I use Walmart lard. I use it over and over again until it gets a little funky. It works great.

My experiences are like the others. 320ish degrees. Watch for the bubbles and the milky white ooze. Snatch it out and squeeze.

[The Original Griz]

May I add, be sure to use lard and not oil. I have a stupid theory of lard is animal and most oils are plant... Stick with the lard.
Ok bring on the stones for my stoning

[Beaverman]

May I add, be sure to use lard and not oil. I have a stupid theory of lard is animal and most oils are plant... Stick with the lard.
Ok bring on the stones for my stoning

I agree with Mr. Gibbons on this and as an added bonus, once it coils it turns back to a solid and easier to store, (no worries of spillage)

[mtgraver]

I use hot air, using a two stage heat gun ...... to lazy to build a fire and time is money when making objects for a living. I use oil and clarifying plates when flattening into sheet. Oils are the curse when using my natural dues so hot air is a good process for me. The horn in the article in American Traditions was done with hot air if you'd like an example.
Griz, I can't throw stones that high to hit ya, hehe. I use peanut oil and agree with the natural oils vs. the processed stuff that will turn to hard gum over time.
Mark

[The Original Griz]

I agree with Mr. Gibbons on this

Now that's funny, sorry for the thread derail but,

[Kermit]

If one was looking to make horn sheet for such things as landhorn windows, would you split the horn, say, in half first, perhaps ripping it on a bandsaw? I've thought about doing a project like this, but never got a round tuit.

[The Original Griz]

Griz, I can't throw stones that high to hit ya, hehe.

For you ole buddy, I'd bend over and let ya have a good shot:) my beards still longer than your though

[bigsmoke]

Although I have used H2O to soften horns, I agree it does not get hot enough to be effective.
I have only used hot oil a couple of times so cannot recommend one way or another.
My preferred method of softening horns is a hot air gun.  I have literally done thousands of powderhorns that way, and as they say, it works for me.
The reason I like the hot air method is it is quicker to warm up and the shop doesn't smell like greasy French fries when you are done heating.
To do pieces of horn, I like using a hot air powered horn oven.  Put the pieces in, bring to temperature and let cook for just a little while.  Not too long. 
Then put the pieces in a press of some sort.
It is a good idea to pre-warm the press before using it if it has metal plates.
John

[The Original Griz]

Although I have used H2O to soften horns, I agree it does not get hot enough to be effective.
I have only used hot oil a couple of times so cannot recommend one way or another.
My preferred method of softening horns is a hot air gun.  I have literally done thousands of powderhorns that way, and as they say, it works for me.
The reason I like the hot air method is it is quicker to warm up and the shop doesn't smell like greasy French fries when you are done heating.
To do pieces of horn, I like using a hot air powered horn oven.  Put the pieces in, bring to temperature and let cook for just a little while.  Not too long. 
Then put the pieces in a press of some sort.
It is a good idea to pre-warm the press before using it if it has metal plates.

Smoke, have you ever found dry heat to make horn too dry or brittle by using the oven? I use dry heat every once in a while and found the horn to get too "dry" after using that method. Just curious, but then again, I am probably doing it wrong.

[RAT]

Never tried oil... too scared.

I've used a heat gun. I've also held horns over the heating element of an electric stove or hot plate. To make sheet, I just cut it with a hand saw. No need to use power tools. Many years ago I had the opportunity to "borrow" a book press. It was cast iron and must have dated to the early 20th century. It worked great. I did a whole bunch of flat horn work during the time I had it.

[bigsmoke]

Griz,
No, I never noticed the horn drying out excessively.  I never did a lot of small pieces, either.  Mainly just powder horns.  That seemed to be where the action was for me.  I have not heard of any of the horns I made having issues, so it must have worked out OK.  I typically heated the horn about 40 seconds and never let the heat gun stay in any one place for more than a second or two.
I was always fairly selective in the horns I worked with, also.
John

[The Original Griz]

Smoke, I must have held it too long, cause mine always cracked a little and seemed very dried out. I never had an oven, I just held it and held the gun to it....

[jamesthomas]

Spentprimer,
Please try your proposed method and report back.

In my experience horn that is shaped or pressed after boiling in water wants to go back to it's original shape.  Maybe not all the way back to original, but enough to make one curse.

Now, boiling in oil, as mentioned above, is the way to go.  Go to your local grocery store or WalMart and buy a big bottle of cooking oil and a confectioner's thermometer, one that goes up to 450 degrees or so.  I heat my oil in a metal coffee can on a Coleman stove, OUTSIDE and away from all things I do not wish to burn down.  BE CAREFUL.  I wear long pants, long sleeves, safety glasses and welders gloves.  Have your press or the sizing cone you are going to use near at hand.  Also have a large pair of pliers to move the hot oil/coffee can as needed.  I clip the thermometer on the side of the can, with the end submerged in the oil.  Fire up the stove and watch the temp.  When it approaches 350, throttle back on the flame, until the temp is steady at 350.  DO NOT heat the oil above 400 degrees.  Cooking oil flashpoint is supposed to well over 500 degrees, but I don't want to find out.  Dip the horn in the hot oil for 15, 20, 30 seconds, depending on the thickness of the horn.  If you see the horn out-gassing bubbles, it's cooking, remove at once.  Test how pliable it is.  If it's soft, put the horn in your press or insert your sizing cone.

-Ron

 I take it that this is the way to go to get the base plug end of a horn round instead of oblong? I have a nice raw white horn that the base plug end is rather oblong and need to make it round to take a base plug.

[Larry Pletcher]

When I took Art DeCamp's class at Conner Prairie, we used a Fry Daddy to heat horns to get the butt end round.  One trick Art showed us was that as the horn was about ready, to tap it on the side on the Fry Daddy.  Instead of a clank, the horn would make a dull thunking noise when ready. Of course, you are close to cooking temp - if it bubbles, you have reached that stage.  We were only heating the butt; a tapered mandrel was inserted at this point.

Regards,
Pletch