Author Topic: Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate  (Read 11394 times)

Offline moleeyes36

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Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate
« on: July 01, 2015, 05:03:53 AM »
I've never used Ferric Nitrate to stain maple, but I've frequently used aqua fortis reagent.  I like to try new things but I thought I'd ask some questions about ferric nitrate since I know a lot of you use one or both of these. 

Is there any advantage to using ferric nitrate over aqua fortis?  For example, is it easier to control the color?  Does it bring out the curl as well as aqua fortis?  Is the color as rich as it is when using aqua fortis or is it more muted?  Thanks.

Mole Eyes 
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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2015, 05:10:53 AM »
Works well, but without the "acid" part of the equation. i.e. safer  :)

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2015, 05:20:56 AM »
ME:  AF is the archaic name for Nitric Acid, though now-a-days, many refer to the solution of acid and iron as Aqua Fortis.  Ferric Nitrate, is iron dissolved in nitric acid....the same thing!  Unless I'm missing something.
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Offline Ryan McNabb

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Re: Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2015, 05:57:20 AM »
Ferric nitrate is available as a powdered chemical from various chemical supply houses online.  When mixed with water it looks like concentrated urine.  I wouldn't drink it, but it's nowhere near as tricky as nitric acid.  It stains maple beautifully just like traditional nitric acid, and doesn't need to be killed back with baking soda.  It will tarnish brass but not as aggressively in my experience.  I would use it more but it dissolves and wastes away in the jar once exposed to air and in a year or two the jar will be empty.  Nitric acid lasts indefinitely, or at least my 15 year old jar has.

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2015, 05:36:02 PM »
ME:  AF is the archaic name for Nitric Acid, though now-a-days, many refer to the solution of acid and iron as Aqua Fortis.  Ferric Nitrate, is iron dissolved in nitric acid....the same thing!  Unless I'm missing something.

Taylor,

Sorry I wasn't specific enough.  I was referring to the solution of Ferric Nitrate crystals that are available from various sources and are dissolved in water or alcohol and used as stain.  I've seen several people here on the forum post about using this.  I'm seeking information on how they think it compares to using what is commonly sold now days by several suppliers as Aqua Fortis.  Sorry if I confused anyone.

Mole Eyes
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2015, 05:53:59 PM »
Hi,
I prefer ferric nitrate crystals over commercially prepared aqua fortis solutions for maple.  Both give equally deep permanent colors to the wood.  I have considerably more control of color using ferric nitrate and I typically make up a small amount of uniquely tailored solution for each gunstock, which allows me to adjust the concentration depending on the qualities of the wood.  Also, the crystals can be dissolved in alcohol if you prefer a faster drying, less grain-raising stain.

dave
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Offline KentSmith

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Re: Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2015, 06:32:15 PM »
So commercially manufactured aqua fortis stain is more than just ferric nitrate solution in water.  Dissolving ferric nitrate crystals in distilled water limits anything that might be contributed from contaminants or unwelcomed guests in the mix.  Homemade stain, reacting iron in nitric acid also usually under less than laboratory controlled conditions has contributions made by alloys,  water contaminants, etc.  A couple observations;

If made correctly and completely reacted the level of acid remaining in the acid based manufacture should be negligible - I wouldn't drink it but get over the acid thing unless you are the maker of the stain.
I have put several ounces of ferric nitrate crystals in a empty soup can and had the bottom eaten within a week - no acid involved other than what might be created due to the reaction of ferric nitrate and Fe in the can.

Commercially prepared aqua fortis stain contains HCl among other things and can affect the color.

Homemade ferric nitrate crystal based stain seems to provide the most reliable and controllable way to obtain a ferric nitrate solution in water provided you use distilled water otherwise you introduce variables into to your result from the water and its other ingredients.

I prefer the ferric nitrate crystal solutions I have made over the ferric nitrate-from iron and nitric acid stains I have made, mostly because I am tired of fooling with nitric acid, worrying about the alloy content of my iron/steel, etc.  Actually, I usually don't pay that much attention, I just throw some stuff in but you make enough that if the stain is less satisfactory than before you have a lot to throw out or use up.  Using ferric nitrate crystals with water seems less a hassle and makes as good of a stain. But the stain commercially prepared and the ferric nitrate crystal solution is not necessarily the same thing.

Offline davec2

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Re: Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2015, 06:56:37 PM »
I make the stain with iron and nitric acid and I make stain with ferric nitrate crystals and water.  Both work equally well.  However, both will cause after rusting of the steel / iron components on the gun.  Some builders do not neutralize after staining with the aqua fortis / iron solution and seem not to have trouble with rusting where iron contacts the wood in the finished rifle.  I have had fine after rusting even after neutralizing twice.  And the first time I used the ferric nitrate crystal solution in water, I neutralized also..and had fine after rusting.

Just because no nitric acid is added to the mix when you use ferric nitrate crystals, do not assume there is no acid present.  As KentSmith noted, the crystals ate the bottom out of an empty soup can.  That is because the crystals are deliquescent (i.e. hydroscopic....they take up moisture out of the air) and the NO3 part of the ferric nitrate molecule combines with water to form weak HNO3 (i.e. nitric acid).  That's partially why a solution of ferric nitrate crystals in water can be used to etch silver.

So the crystals work great, but will cause some after rusting (just like the aqua fortis / iron solutions) if some care is not taken after staining the wood.  Ferric nitrate is also used by sculptors to give a dark patina on bronze works, so it will darken brass.
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Offline Scota4570

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Re: Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2015, 07:45:59 PM »
I have nitric acid.  I have iron (steel shot).  I don't want to buy ferric nitrate crystal (expensive).  Would steel shot,, reagent grade nitric acid,  and distilled water be a good bet to keep the product fairly pure, as versus nails, lathe turnings,  or scrap steel? 

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2015, 12:29:10 AM »
Scott,
Remember, we need iron, as pure as can be.  Steel has other metals to make it whatever kind of steel that it is.  That will change the finished product.  And nitric acid is very dangerous.
I don't want to work with the stuff!! 
Ferric nitrate crystals are about $10 from the Science Co.  That bottle will do about 8-10 rifles.  WAY cheaper than any commercial stain you can buy.

Just sayin.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2015, 03:27:33 AM »
Good call on the science company.    I had been looking at iso certified mucky muck ferric nitrate like I buy at work.  That kind is expensive.   I'll buy some from the science co.  Few chems get me concerned.  Mecuric chloride, conc H2so4, Nitric acid, and anything radioactive, a few strong oxidixers not much else. I agree it is best to avoid concentrated nitric acid.   The fuming red type is scarry. 

How much ferric nitrate to how much di water?


Offline Karl Kunkel

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Re: Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2015, 03:50:49 AM »
I used a 1:5 ratio.  Slopped it on, left it dry and blushed with a heat gun.  The result was a chocolate brown with a slight amber undertone and occasional red highlight.
Kunk

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2015, 06:41:40 PM »
I used a 1:5 ratio.

By volume?  Fill a container 1/5th full of powder and top up with distilled water?

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2015, 04:11:26 AM »
Scott,
I use the small bottle that it comes in, and just fill it up with the liquid of your choice. That ratio seems to,work just fine.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Karl Kunkel

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Re: Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2015, 05:43:50 AM »
It wasn't very scientific.  I think it was one small bathroom Dixie cup of crystals to five Dixie cups of water.
Kunk

cyrus1066

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Re: Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2015, 12:55:17 AM »
First builder here..can any one point me to a gproven tutorial
on aqua fortis usage,mix,storage etc
I want to do this as done in the old days.
Cyrus

Offline KentSmith

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Re: Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2015, 04:20:15 AM »
Here how I do/did it.  I wear rubber gloves and goggles.  I get a clean qt. mason jar, I have a 250 ml glass beaker I use for measuring ( a four ounce straight sided glass would work), I have used iron filing from a school science supply shop, of course the nitric acid and distilled water(have used rain water.  I also bought some foot long glass rods for stirring from the same science supply store.  I have also used several small chunks of wrought iron, say small 3/8" square.   Make 4-5  probably don't need them all but you might. I got my nitric acid from Antec in Louisville, KY.  I get a 5 gallon bucket and fill it 3/4 full of plain water.  Have a garden water hose handy.

do this outside preferably when the wind is blowing away from you or anything else you don't want to be down wind from the fumes.

I measure out 750 ml of water and put it in the mason jar.  I dry out the beaker and pour 125 ml of nitric acid into the beaker and then pour that into the mason jar.  Put the beaker into the bucket of water.  I use a glass rod to carefully stir the acid mixture and then carefully put it into the bucket of water.  I take the iron filings or other iron and drop them into the acid mixture.  They will form bubbles on their sides and slowly start to react.  I start out slow, no need to rush things, maybe two or three of the chunks.  The iron filings will react faster and more violently, I put in a teaspoon at first and let that calm down.  Some people use steel wool which can go nuts fast in addition to introducing who know what other metal.  When the iron filing calm down and are no longer producing red fumes(do not go near the red fumes) I add another teaspoon of filings.

The next day I check to see if any of the metal remains.  Can pretty much guarantee the iron filings will be gone so add some more and expect some more action.  Write down how much you add for the next time.  If using the iron chunks you stand a good chance that there is still a little bit left.  I usually add one or two more especially if there is a lot of action remaining.  You basically keep adding iron until any sign of reaction stops.  I will add one last chunk or one last teaspoon of filings just to be sure.  I like to take several days with this.  After the reaction stops, I pour it off into small brown glass jars with tight screw top plastic  lids but I don't tighten them up yet.  Give them about a week and then tighten and store.

Some keep the sludge in the bottom.  I pour that off and discard.

Wash the glass measuring beaker or whatever and the glass rod after using.  If by chance you spill the acid on you or your hands use the water bucket immediately and worry about cleaning the beaker later.  Do this outside and have the hose ready in case of spills.

I do a 1:6 acid to water.  Always add acid to water not the other way around or you will get to use the water bucket and the hose and probably go to the emergency room.  Acid to water as a fellow oughter.

Be very careful with the acid.  You will probably have to buy a liter and that will make a lot of stain, 8-9 batches.  The glass liter bottle wil come with a bakelite lid that is supposed to be acid resistant.  My last bottle of acid lasted two years and would still be there but the acid fumes ate the bakelite lid and an open bottle of nitric acid is not desirable.  I made one last batch, cleaned everything up and disposed of the bottle.  Now I no longer have to worry about having nitric acid around.

Again be careful and have a plan in case you spill.

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Aqua Fortis vs. Ferric Nitrate
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2015, 05:19:47 PM »
I put some alcohol in a small fruit juice glass and add enough ferric nitrate powder until it looks like strong urine on a hot summer day.  :o

 No need to complicate this stuff.