re tempering a frizzen

[yip]

 i bought a small siler kit, everything went fine with the built except for the frizzen. i harden it and tempered it using a electric furnace. i thought i did it right but it don't spark well, so i'm trying to re temper it in my oven but it still don't spark well. is there any ideas?

[bob in the woods]

I like to use charcoal to heat and harden my frizzens.  Did you get it hard enough before tempering ?

[Acer Saccharum]

What color are the sparks?

[Bob Roller]

i bought a small siler kit, everything went fine with the built except for the frizzen. i harden it and tempered it using a electric furnace. i thought i did it right but it don't spark well, so i'm trying to re temper it in my oven but it still don't spark well. is there any ideas?

Did you boost the hardening process with Kasenit or Cherry Red?
What did you quench it in? If it was an old kit it may have a carbon deficient
frizzen that will never be right.
Bob Roller

[yip]

  i heated it to cherry red and quenched it in oil. the sparks are reddish orange, i used kasinit before with success on other frizzens, maybe i'll try it. can i re harden and re temper it? the kit is an older one, i got it for a song and dance, couldn't pass it up

[little joe]

Just did one and and the result was very few sparks. Took 60 grit paper and polished the face shinny and now it sparks very well

[yip]

   just got done stoning it, now to give er a try

[Acer Saccharum]

Reddish orange means you should not temper more hardness away. You might try, as suggested, to stone the face of the frizzen. 

As a last resort, you might have to re-harden and temper less to get yellow-orange sparks.

 

[P.W.Berkuta]

   just got done stoning it, now to give er a try

This is most often necessary to remove the surface decarbonized scale material from the surface of your part which happens if you don't remove the oxygen from your oven during the heat treat process.

[Mark Elliott]

It is particularly important that you make sure the surface of the frizzen is sufficiently hard.   Typically,  it will not get hard enough if you don't replace the carbon lost due to heating.    Heating in an electric oven for hardening is too slow.   You are going to loose too much carbon.   

When Jim Chambers hardens frizzens, he does so with a gas torch adjusted to have a carbonizing flame.   I use a gas forge, and I put a little Kasenite on the frizzen face since I cannot adjust (easily) my forge to have a carbonizing flame.    I then quench in Brownells quenching oil or 20W motor oil.  I do the tempering in my electric heat treat oven as it doesn't matter how long it takes to get up to tempering temperture.   The only high temp (above 700F)  heat treatment I would do in my heat treat oven (for normal gun work) would be annealing and case hardening.

As a general rule,  you need to heat parts to temperature quickly for hardening and take measures to replace carbon lost to heating.   Those measures may include a surface treatment with something like Kasenite or using a heating method that introduces carbon; as in a carbonizing gas flame or a coal or charcoal heat source. 

[shortbarrel]

From the mouth of Bud Siler on the telephone 1980. Use a carbon rich flame, with a number 2 or 3 tip on the acetylene torch. Heat to bright red and quench in light oil. Temper back at 300 to 350 if you like. Have not shot the gun in years, but as I remember it was a very fast lock.

[hammer]

Cherry red may not be hot enough.    Much will depend on the light to judge colour.   You are best to go higher to an orange.  The advice to add carbon during the quick heating process is a very good one.   Quenching has to be quick, wave it around in a thin oil, I have used warm water with success.    Afterwards lay the frizzen, face down, on your vice and carefully heat the tail to a blue, letting the colours move towards the face.   As soon as the the straw colour reaches across the pan cover quench again.  Fingers crossed everything should be fine.
Good luck.

[Bob Roller]

Cherry red may not be hot enough.    Much will depend on the light to judge colour.   You are best to go higher to an orange.  The advice to add carbon during the quick heating process is a very good one.   Quenching has to be quick, wave it around in a thin oil, I have used warm water with success.    Afterwards lay the frizzen, face down, on your vice and carefully heat the tail to a blue, letting the colours move towards the face.   As soon as the the straw colour reaches across the pan cover quench again.  Fingers crossed everything should be fine.
Good luck.

This will work.I use thin oil in an old metal large coffee can with a screen about half way down to catch the frizzen. The tempering method is spot on for about 99% of home work shop needs.

Bob Roller

[yip]

 thanks guys, this is the place for answers! THANKS AGAIN................YIP