cast sheet brass

[bob in the woods]

Does anyone know of a source for cast sheet brass ?   I'm not set up for casting my own, but would like to  try and use it on my next rifle rather than the usual rolled stuff.

[Dan Fruth]

I found a supplier of antique clock parts that also sells cast sheet brass. The company is in England, but I didn't save their address. As I recall the thickness was a bit thick....Dan

[vulture]

Net search came up with "Time Restored Limited," they are in England, take a look and see if they have what you want.

[Chris Treichel]

Jantz and some other cuttlery making companies sell sheet brass as well as other metals. http://www.knifemaking.com/category-s/98.htm

Then you also have jewlers supply stores like Rio Grand and Otto Frei. www.riogrande.com www.ottofrei.com

[bob in the woods]

Obtaining sheet brass is not a problem.  It's cast sheet that I'm after.

[Mark Elliott]

If you have cast sheet,  it will have to be hammered or rolled; and it will have to be annealed in between each roll or after a bit of hammering.   Do you have the a rolling mill and a way to anneal the sheet?   

I can cast brass and silver wire and sheet, but I wouldn't want to do it as long as I can buy sheet.  I can't imagine that all the early gunsmiths cast sheet.   If you are going cast sheet,  why not cast the part you need, directly?    I have seen original longriflles with cast patchboxes, toe plates, sideplates, and nose pieces.    Thimbles were usually made of very thin sheet, thinner than I would normally use; making me think that they used what they could easily acquire in a usable form.   

I know that doesn't answer your question, but I thought the questions were in order.    How big did you need?  I have a little jewelers mould for casting sheet and wire to be rolled or drawn.    The little ingot for sheet is about 2" sq and about 1/8" thick.    I wouldn't mind casting you an ingot and sending it to you if you could use it.    PM me if you want it.

[James Rogers]

Any cast brass sheet I have used always looks like any other sheet brass after it goes thru my rolling mill : )

[Mark Elliott]

Any cast brass sheet I have used always looks like any other sheet brass after it goes thru my rolling mill : )

Well said, but I can understand Bob wanting to make sheet just once to try it.   I would do it if I had a rolling mill.   I might try hammering out enough for a nose piece, just to say I did it.   I do have a lot of scrap brass that I was saving for casting mounts, not necessarily for sheet, though.

[ddoyle]

Mark, when you cast brass do you notice any difference between the scrap that comes from castings and the scrap that comes from flatware/sheet?  I read somewhere (which does not make it true) that a better pour can be achieved with scrap that was originally a casting.

Sorry for the hijack question but I have been working on cuttlefish bone molds for  serpent side plates (with HC rounded backs not flat, made the mistake of researching them  ) and would like at least one to be a success.

[Mark Elliott]

Mark, when you cast brass do you notice any difference between the scrap that comes from castings and the scrap that comes from flatware/sheet?  I read somewhere (which does not make it true) that a better pour can be achieved with scrap that was originally a casting.

Sorry for the hijack question but I have been working on cuttlefish bone molds for  serpent side plates (with HC rounded backs not flat, made the mistake of researching them  ) and would like at least one to be a success.

I really can't help.   Most of my scrap brass is sheet and wire.   I wouldn't think it would make any difference as long as you flux and add a little extra zinc (I think I figured nine pennies per lb of brass).

[bob in the woods]

Thank you for the kind offer, Mark.  I was very interested in using the cast material, mainly for the historical value, even if only the one time. I was intending to swage a butt plate from it. I was lead to believe that it behaved differently than the standard rolled sheet . [ softer ?? ]  I have a DVD with Frank House using a cast sheet for that purpose, and he claims there is a difference. Perhaps I'll just obtain a cast BP from Reeves and use that as a base to hammer out what I need.

[jerrywh]

 Why don't you just cast a patch box?   Not all brass will hammer out very well. Some of it is brittle and annealing doesn't help much.  Depends on the ratio of zinc  to copper. It also depends on the temperature it is poured at and other things. Even the type of furnace will alter it. Dave Race should be able to help some he has sand cast some.

[Mark Elliott]

All brass work hardens.   I don't see how there could be any difference between brass you hammer and brass you roll,  assuming the same composition.   I am with Jerry, cast your patchbox.   Lots of original patchboxes, including the side pieces were cast.    Now, those castings right out of the mould,  I would expect to be softer than as rolled sheet.   However  I anneal my sheet when it starts to get too hard to work.   Then, it becomes almost as soft as lead sheet;  at least until you bend it the first time. 

[Chris Treichel]

If you want to cast brass in a very clean way... there is a method to pour the molten brass into very hot water (not boiling). This will allow the brass to cool without oxidizing and will form a very clean nodule that looks almost like a river rock. This can then be anealed and passed through a rolling mill or hammer if you wish.

[jerrywh]

 Better think twice about pouring 1800° brass into water.  Definitely do not get water into the molten brass. Brass into water is a small explosion. Water into brass is a very dangerous situation. There is a lot of very dumb stuff on youtube

[bob in the woods]

I would never dream of pouring any molten metal into water. I was looking at traditional sand casting.

[Rolf]

I have several books on Japanese mokume metal working . Casting ingots of gold, silver and copper alloys  in water with canvas molds is the traditional way the do it. Never dared try it myself.

Best regards
Rolf

[davec2]

When refining precious metals, I routinely pour molten gold and silver into cold water to form what is known as "casting shot".  I do it to produce finely divided small pieces of metal rather than one solid lump, as in this Japanese process, but it works just fine for producing nice clean metal.  Except for the temperature, this is not particularly different from the way lead shot is formed by dropping molten lead into water.  (The lengthy fall, in that case, is to make the shot as spherical as possible.)

[jerrywh]

 Dave. Do you run it through a screen before it hits the water and what kind of protective clothing do you wear?  Does it drop a certain distance before it hits the water?

[bob in the woods]

I have experimented with making shot, and there was a learning curve in getting my ruperts shot maker into service.
First, the shot needs to fall a sufficient distance to the water, in order to allow it to solidify prior to hitting the surface.
If the shot maker/plate is too close to the water, the drops of lead splatter when they hit .

[Rolf]

This is a picture from a page in the book "Mokume Gane, a comprehensive study" by Steve Midgett.  It shows traditional japanese craftsmen pouring large ingots of copper alloys in water. The ingots are used to make large sheet of metal.

Best regards
Rolf

[davec2]

Jerry,

No screen.  Unlike the Japanese method, which is designed to make a single, clean button / ingot, I swirl the pour around in 
a circle to form many small pieces of "shot".  I don't wear any protective equipment.  There is very little reaction as the molten metal hits the cold water.  No big steam driven bounce back.  That will happen in a wet mold, but not as you pour the molten metal into a lot of water.  When I pour, the crucible is held about 6 inches above the water surface.  Next time I make casting shot, I will try to take a video.

[jerrywh]

 Good information.  Here I am almost 80 and still have a lot to learn.  Thanks Dave and friends.

[davec2]

Hey Jerry,

Rather than wait until I did this again to video the process, I looked it up on You Tube.  This is nearly exactly the way I do it.

[Mark Elliott]

Dave,  Is that casting shot how you "recycle" scrap for re-casting?   In other words,  is that how I should process my scrap silver before I try to re-cast it?  I only ask because I have never cast silver, but I am saving my scrap for a set of pistol mounts.