Author Topic: Shredded Patches, What?  (Read 35999 times)

BartSr

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Shredded Patches, What?
« on: July 21, 2015, 10:25:36 PM »
Today I went out with my Sharon barreled underhammer in .54 cal to the range. Last time I went out I forgot to pick up some of the patches to see what is going on with the weird groups. Today I retreived some of the patches but not all.

OK, so these are some of the patches I could find. The round white commercial patches totally disappeared! The dark patches are fine weave cotton camo and about 0.012 thick. The pillow ticking patches we all know about. Round balls used are Hornady 0.530 or 0.535 inch diameter and both exhibit the same results. Load started with 55gr of 777 FFg, then later dropped to 40gr of the same powder.

I have scrubbed the barrel with stainless steel wool (we get this stuff from the sheep that have no known enemies) wrapped around a .54 cal jag. Afterwards I can run a thick patch around a jag and it does not tear or rip going up and down the barrel.

My question is, what am I doing to make this mess or is it the barrel's internal roughness?





And many thanks for any suggestions,
Paul

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2015, 11:29:38 PM »
There's been lots written and discussed on this site about your problem and this phenomenon.  But to make it simple, here's my take...

1 - re-crown your muzzle using your thumb and some abrasive cloth.  You need to break the sharp corners of the lands so that when you start the ball, the patch is not torn, stretched too far, or cut.

2 - use the softest lead for your balls you can find. Swaged commercial balls should be fine.

3 - use denim patch material from .018" to .022" thick with your combination.  Commercial patches are too thin, IME, and not all ticking is good either.  Lubricate the patch until it is SOAKED!

If you do those three things, you patches should be good enough to use several times.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2015, 12:52:48 AM »
There's been lots written and discussed on this site about your problem and this phenomenon.  But to make it simple, here's my take...

1 - re-crown your muzzle using your thumb and some abrasive cloth.  You need to break the sharp corners of the lands so that when you start the ball, the patch is not torn, stretched too far, or cut.

2 - use the softest lead for your balls you can find. Swaged commercial balls should be fine.

3 - use denim patch material from .018" to .022" thick with your combination.  Commercial patches are too thin, IME, and not all ticking is good either.  Lubricate the patch until it is SOAKED!

If you do those three things, you patches should be good enough to use several times.

This is asbestos advice one can get I say.    :P

My practical measure of a good patch, smooth crown, tight enough is when one can shoot the same patch at least 3 times and unlimited shots without in-between wiping.  For hunting and "friendly" competition that is.  ;)
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BartSr

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2015, 01:58:23 AM »
There's been lots written and discussed on this site about your problem and this phenomenon.  But to make it simple, here's my take...

1 - re-crown your muzzle using your thumb and some abrasive cloth.  You need to break the sharp corners of the lands so that when you start the ball, the patch is not torn, stretched too far, or cut.

2 - use the softest lead for your balls you can find. Swaged commercial balls should be fine.

3 - use denim patch material from .018" to .022" thick with your combination.  Commercial patches are too thin, IME, and not all ticking is good either.  Lubricate the patch until it is SOAKED!

If you do those three things, you patches should be good enough to use several times.

Thanks, will do.

Paul

jamesthomas

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2015, 02:39:57 AM »
 Yep, that looks to me the classic signs of a sharp crown cutting the patch as you load it.

BartSr

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2015, 03:04:37 AM »
Denim soaking, my old 46 waist, well washed.
Hope you like this re-crown, all factory sharp edges removed.  320 grit then 1000 grit, wet/dry with oil. That's 1+1/8 inch across the flats.



Thanks everyone for the great tips, it's much appreciated.
Personal info updated, too.
Paul
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 03:17:18 AM by BartSr »

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2015, 04:26:17 AM »
...

Thanks everyone for the great tips, it's much appreciated.
Personal info updated, too.
Paul

excellent grasshopper

 ;D
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jamesthomas

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2015, 06:37:04 AM »
Denim soaking, my old 46 waist, well washed.
Hope you like this re-crown, all factory sharp edges removed.  320 grit then 1000 grit, wet/dry with oil. That's 1+1/8 inch across the flats.



Thanks everyone for the great tips, it's much appreciated.
Personal info updated, too.
Paul

 Looks very nice, now go out and shoot it and see how it does.

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2015, 02:28:30 PM »
Be sure and let the folks here know how this worked out for you at the range.  Some other folks that might be experiencing your problem may benefit from the information.  I would be very surprised if this doesn't cure your problem.

Mole Eyes
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2015, 06:48:59 PM »
Paul:  am I seeing a bit of round file work on the grooves?  That crown will not cut or tear your patches.  Now throw away the hankie material and use some denim.  Men's blue jean material is a little heavy - usually running .025" - .030".  Women's jean material is about perfect, as is denim from some shirts.  If using old blue jeans, use only the backs of the legs...the fronts are worn too thin and are likely too weak for the job.  And saturate your patches to the point of dripping.  The extra solution will not interfere with your powder charge.  It gets squeezed so much that there's nothing much left to wet your powder.  But the extra will take care of the bore's last shot fowling, which is all you''ll ever have to deal with all day long.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline smallpatch

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2015, 07:14:52 PM »
Paul,

Listen to Taylor..... He's older and smarter!!
Definitely tighter, more durable patch will cure it, and make it shoot to its best.
I see you're in Snotsdale.... I'm in Mesa. 
Lots of clubs and places to shoot here.

Let me know if I can help!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 07:16:12 PM by smallpatch »
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Daryl

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2015, 07:22:22 PM »
Nothing I can add - well done.
Nice crown!
Daryl

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Offline hanshi

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2015, 09:40:17 PM »
Taylor pretty much nailed it but I'll suggest one more thing that I do.  Use an op wad.  It can be punched out of felt, Hornet nest, leather, a dry wadded up patch or a wad of paper.  I use .030" ticking (.024" when compressed).  While pretty snug, by using Hoppes #9 Plus BP lube the 20th shot loads as "easily" as the first or second.  I use a range rod except when actually hunting so any load I use has to be safely doable with the under barrel wood rod.  Good luck.
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BartSr

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2015, 10:27:28 PM »
Went back to the range to test that muzzle crown.  Yes correct, small chainsaw files.  I tried to be very careful in working on the crown to keep from being off-center, etc.  While the modified crown reduced the loading effort the (same) patches still are coming out shredded.  I do not feel any undue effort in pushing the RB+patch down the barrel.  I tried loads from 60grs down to 40grs of 777 FFg and I ran out of the .530 RB's doing all of this "testing".  I do have a box of .535 RB's still.  I am not against trying smaller RB's in this testing.

I tried those unusually-thick mens jeans patches, I couldn't even get it started.  ::)  hahaha.
OK, I will look for some shirt/womens denim probably at Jo-Anns.
Also will make sure that the patch lube is really wet and will keep you posted.

@smallpatch: I shoot at the Usery Mountain Range for those of you in the AZ arena and do belong to the muzzle-stuffers club.


--- P.S.
In other "rifles" that I have, none of the same patch material ever shreds or tears.  They are GM D.I.S.C. barrels with the bolt section factory removed and purchased as "internet specials" and a Jonathan Browning barrel found at a PDX gun-show.  So I'm surprised that the patches used previously get a bad report with this barrel.  This is my first try at a bench rest only rifle and yes, the stock has a tad too much drop.


And again, thanks to everyone for all of the comments and suggestions, I soak all of them up,
Paul
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 10:28:55 PM by BartSr »

Online smylee grouch

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2015, 11:09:33 PM »
You might want to check the diameter of your ball starter to see if it is too large as you start your load. If it is too large it will pinch the cloth against the sides of the lands and compromise the integrity of the weave which might be causing the burn through.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2015, 02:02:20 AM »
Your crown appears to be perfect and didn't need those little rat-tailed file grooves in the grooves, but, they shouldn't hurt at all.
If the patches are still shredding as before, the patches lack the required integrity. They are too weak, too thin or the bore is toast from using Pyrodex, prior to this?

I use the really thick denim, 12 ounce, which measures .030"av. in my dial calipers squeezed as hard as possible on the tines between finger and thumb. My Mitutoyou mic, measures it at .025 - compressed hard. This is my favourite patch for my 14 bore rifle with a .684" pure lead ball.  It is difficult to load with the WW ball from the same mould, so when I want to shoot hard lead, I use a .677" mould which throws .675" WW balls. they load beautifully with the heavy patch and do not burn out - AT ALL. I can actually use the same patch for a 5 shot group, picking it up, re-lubing it and shooting again and again.

What this mean- is something is wrong with your patch material - or barrel.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

jamesthomas

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2015, 02:14:52 AM »
 Sir, I'll go out on a limb and say it is the Hodgens 777 that you are using that is causing the burned and shredded patches, it burns hotter and faster than Blackpowder or Pyrodex.  If you can, try some blackpowder and see how it does.

BartSr

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2015, 03:35:13 AM »
Your crown appears to be perfect and didn't need those little rat-tailed file grooves in the grooves, but, they shouldn't hurt at all.
If the patches are still shredding as before, the patches lack the required integrity. They are too weak, too thin or the bore is toast from using Pyrodex, prior to this?

I use the really thick denim, 12 ounce, which measures .030"av. in my dial calipers squeezed as hard as possible on the tines between finger and thumb. My Mitutoyou mic, measures it at .025 - compressed hard. This is my favourite patch for my 14 bore rifle with a .684" pure lead ball.  It is difficult to load with the WW ball from the same mould, so when I want to shoot hard lead, I use a .677" mould which throws .675" WW balls. they load beautifully with the heavy patch and do not burn out - AT ALL. I can actually use the same patch for a 5 shot group, picking it up, re-lubing it and shooting again and again.

What this mean- is something is wrong with your patch material - or barrel.

Thanks.

This barrel had not been breached and was apparently NOS Sharon stock but unmarked (not stamped), according to the seller.  Breech is 3/4 x 16.  So far I've only used 777 FFg since I don't have any Goex FFg, yet.  I do have Goex FFFg but was hesitant to use it in a .54 barrel.

I'll use the new denim I picked up today, two different weights - 8oz and 10oz from Hobby Lobby.
And will stay away from thinner patch material with this barrel.

Paul

Offline Topknot

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2015, 03:46:36 AM »
Bart, I have been using tripple seven powder since it came out and I can say from my own experience that 777 will not shread your patches provided you use a .25 to .30  denim patch, and decent powder loads. Just my own experiences.

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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2015, 04:47:18 AM »


I'll use the new denim I picked up today, two different weights - 8oz and 10oz from Hobby Lobby.
And will stay away from thinner patch material with this barrel.

Paul


FFF will work fine, but as noted-powder is mostly likely not the culprit.  You simply must work up separate loads for FF and FFF (and any other variation) for best performance.

8oz is pretty thin, you might be getting somewhere with 10.  My jeans makers claim theirs is 14.75oz and that's what I like best.  I buy logger pants and cut them off for HD (double front) shorts.  Lots of "free" patch material!

Of course until the patch issue is resolved, shooting at paper really means nothing at all. 
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Offline SCLoyalist

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2015, 05:54:33 AM »
Have you any idea how deep the grooves are cut on your barrel?  I had to troubleshoot a patch integrity issue on a .54 Colerain which has, as close as I can tell, a .540 bore diameter, groove depth of 0.016" for a groove diameter of .572.   I found a 10 oz duck (measuring 0.028 thick with light pressure and 0.020 thick with the caliper jaws under heavy finger pressure) worked well with a .527 ball.   I've been wetting the patch through with Hoppes 9 Plus, but I think water works just about as well as long as the patch is soaked through to just short of dripping.

I'd expect 10 oz to work okay for you unless the Sharon barrel grooves are more like 0.010 or 0.012.

If your denim still shreds, try  a few shots with about 50 grains by volume of cornmeal as a filler between powder and the patched roundball.  The cornmeal will form a moving firewall between hot gasses and the patch and eliminate patch shredding due to gas-blowby.   The recovered patches should be neat and clean and not even smell burned.   If any of those patches isn't intact, that would suggest you have a sharp edge or rough spot cutting or tearing patches.

Good luck with it.



 

Offline Daryl

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2015, 10:58:19 PM »
I measure 8 ounce denim as .019" to .020" and 10 ounce as .022" to .0225" on the calipers - squeezed tightly as possible, between finger and thumb on the tines.

Note, different technique and tools can get you a HOST of DIFFERENT measurements on the same piece of cloth.  I have 3 dial calipers and each gives a different reading even though they are used exactly the same way on the same piece of cloth.  Taylor's mic gives a different reading than mine does - it depends on the size of the anvils in the different tools. Measuring hard objects should produce identical results, however soft compressible items are different.  The measurements above are the average of my tools which just happens to be a new set of Hornady calipers.  They are very nice, repeatable and never change.
Daryl

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BartSr

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2015, 09:33:10 PM »
I am considering using .520 RB's just to see if this bore is a tad dight.  ???
I have been searching for either a .520 mold or .520 RB's online, any clues from all y'all?

Paul

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2015, 09:48:12 PM »
I am considering using .520 RB's just to see if this bore is a tad dight.  ???
I have been searching for either a .520 mold or .520 RB's online, any clues from all y'all?

Paul


Track of the Wolf sells .520 round balls, cast and swaged, as well as molds to cast .520 balls.

Mole Eyes
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Shredded Patches, What?
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2015, 06:04:58 AM »
I am considering using .520 RB's just to see if this bore is a tad dight.  ???
I have been searching for either a .520 mold or .520 RB's online, any clues from all y'all?

Paul


There's this guy in the UK who will make you a mould (that's how they spellit) that will cast .517, .518, .519, .520, .521, .522, .523...etc. for a reasonable price. Just pick a size. They are made of brass and are not fitted with a sprue cutter.  Some folks here love 'em.  I love mine (in .530).

His name Jeff Tanner.  The rest is easy enough to decipher.  ;)
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