Shredded Patches, What?

[Daryl]

Lyman used to make a .526" RB mould.

Most .54's are indeed, .540" and the best ball for them is a .535" with a 10 ounce patch - usually.

 Many years ago, there was a barrel maker who cut rifled barrels, but they were tight at .530" bore with .010" rifling.  A .535" ball would sit on the landsat the muzzle.  iF A .535" ball will not sit on your lands, it is likely a .540" bore - measuring it is the best way to find out.  You can not find out what size it is, by using a grossly undersized ball.  You must measure it. 

I have a section of that particular "tight" barrel on my flintlock pistol. I use a .526" RB (.004 under bore size) and a .020" patch - loading is easy and it shoots cleanly with the 55gr. 3f charge required to shoot well in the 60" twist- no wiping - EVER - while shooting a course of fire.

[BartSr]

Range Report July/26/2015
25 yds, 40gr of 777 FFg, various patches shown, reduced diameter round balls (shown), pushed through a pipe having an ID of 0.52 (approximately).


Upper patches mostly 0.030 thick; three are 0.025 thick while the wasted ones are 0.015 thick.


Looks like I need 0.520 round balls with those 0.030 denim patches.



Red dots previous shootings.
Todays shots without burned patches is the center group, the two flyers are burned patches.


Paul (Hoot!)

[jamesthomas]

 Good shooting! what kind of round balls are those? It looks like they have a "belt" around them.

[smylee grouch]

I think you need more powder and more experimentation. Your groups might tighten up if you push the ball faster. You might need different lube and if you shoot larger loads your patch material might give up. All things you will need to check out.

[WadePatton]

Good shooting! what kind of round balls are those? It looks like they have a "belt" around them.

Yes, they are "belted" because he "sized" them through a pipe to get a .520 "belt"-actually a waist. 

So they're far from spherical and I expect their accuracy to fall off sharply, but things are looking much better!

Good for trying different things and getting the patching up to real thicknesses.  Every gun has it's way.


...

But some truths are universal 

[BartSr]

I think you need more powder and more experimentation. Your groups might tighten up if you push the ball faster. You might need different lube and if you shoot larger loads your patch material might give up. All things you will need to check out.

I did pick up some Hoppe's-9 and some Precision Lube 2000 both from Sportsman's Warehouse.  Have tried both and I must say I prefer these to bore-butter.  Will do on the powder load increases.  Have been searching for 0.052 RB's and/or molds for the same size, not too many places have those.

Paul

[Daryl]

Paul - is that a 25 yard group?

[BartSr]

Paul - is that a 25 yard group?

@Daryl,
Yup, only because I was also trying out new settings on the rear sight.  Will use the 50yd targets after getting the "near perfect" ball size and patch thickness along with the nicest load of FFg.    At least I hit the target paper.

Paul

[Daryl]

TKS for the explanation on target, sights and load.  

Your picture of the denim patches shows a LOT of blow-by - the brown scorch marks from the groove marks, radiating out towards the edge of the patch  are due to the power gases blowing past the patch in the bottom of the grooves.  Those are the scorch marks I am referring to.

In extreme cases, the patch actually gets burn holes, but - there is gas/fire blowby according to the retrieved patches, which means the ball and patch combination is TOO loose.  The 'group' also shows this as well - too loose.

Please do something for us.

File the sprue's corners off a .535" ball to make it a perfectly round, with no sprue projection and see if it will roll into the clean bore of your rifle - if it will roll in, it will roll right out again.  If it will not roll in, you most likely have a .540" bore - not a tight one at all.

Because the length of the sides of your swaged balls, the patches will be VERY tight on the tops of the lands and feel like a tighter load than what you actually have. The scorch marks are proof of a loose fit in the bottom of the grooves.

If it will not enter easily, try this also with a .530" ball. You need to find out what the bore size is (even if you cannot measure it with calipers). Knowing the groove diameter is also helpful in determining the ball and patch combination that will work best.

The combinations you used on that target are not it.

[BartSr]

@Daryl, et al.
I ran out of both 0.530 and 0.535 RB's.

Range report for today.
25 yds, 60gr of 777 FFg, 0.030 denim patchs, simulated 0.52 RB's.
Yes, I was aiming at the corner bulls too.



Yes, I know that this is NOT the way to measure ID's but it gets me into the ballpark.
Sorry for the fuzziness, it's a bit tough to hold all and take a pix too. Approx 0.547 or so.


approx 0.571 or so.



Tried 50yds, same loads.  I guess I need more practice at 50yds.
My excuse is that I lost my glasses and was shooting without them, really!  
That rear sight is a bit fuzzy.

One was a Hornady .50cal 385gr hollowbased bullet with,
what my wife calls, a "twill" cotton 0.020 inch patch.
The Hornady bullet hit just to the right of center.
]

Just ordered a .530 RB Lee mold from TOTW.

Paul

[Daryl]

Hi Paul- showing a .547" bore and .571" groove to groove showing .012" deep rifling, means your bore is larger than the standard .540" & it has standard depth rifling.

For us, a .540" ball would be perfect in this oversized bore as it is already .007" smaller than the bore, whereas a .535" ball would be perfect in a .540" bore measurement - for a hunting or trail walk rifle.

Your barrel, being approximately .07" larger than standard, means a larger ball than standard is required, not small as you thought.

 That is why your .030" patches are failing to seal - they are too thin for the tiny .520" ball- but might work with a .535" ball, which is already 12" smaller than the bore. The accuracy in the targets actually shows this.

With a larger ball, the accuracy will improve - but - you must learn to load it.


Here are different methods of loading- especially with the side by side.  note it was loaded with a .562" ball and .0215" patch.  I switched to using a .574" ball and a .0235" patch and loading was virtually identical. To the rest, sorry for yet again, posting these videos.

.45" pure lead ball, 10 ounce denim patch that I measured at .0225". The barrel had been loaded and fired approximately 50 or 55 times that day and had not been wiped at any time - just loaded and fired as we do. No patches burn and if picked up, could easily be reloaded and shot again. They are not scorched, either and are still dam.

Note- Ross is shooting a smoothbore with round ball and a fairly snug patch. It actually loaded no quicker than the rifle.



This is me with my .58 Kodiak and the undersized .562" pure lead balls in a .580" bore with .008" rifling depth.



lastly, this is brother Taylor shooting his .50 Virginia rifle with a .490" ball and .022" denim patch. The rifling in this gun is .016" deep and with over 85gr. of powder, it will start to scorch the patches in some grooves, causing flyers. This rifle needs a .495" ball, which I believe Taylor adopted after this experiment.
None of these guns EVER needs wiping during a day's shooting.

[hammer]

Moulds, any size, brass?  Jeff Tanner in the UK.  Excellent service and prices.  Fast delivery.  Lots of USA customers.

Perfectly round and precise cast roundball?   A ball roller.  Pedersoli sell one but easy for an engineer to make up.  Basis is two parallel steel plates, one rotated above the other with the cast balls between, surrounded by a fence.   A drop of oil for lubrication.   Can be power driven.  I have a heavier one made by a friend and powered by my cordless drill.  Note: the East India Company rolled all their rifle and musket balls till replaced by swaged.
 
Patch thickness determined by groove depth.   Shallow groove, thin patch.  Deep groove, thick patch.  E.g. cotton sheet up to pillow ticking.   Got to have high thread count, tight weave.   Denim ain't as tight as ticking.   Got to fill those grooves and little more.   So thin patch, wider ball.  Thick patch, narrower ball.   Pretty much a trial and error fit to get it right.   Likely to need ball 0.01 inch undersize for thick patch and 0.005 inch for thin patch.   We are talking smart rap to seat patch/ball into muzzle, short starter to start load then ramrod to push down.  A drawn ball should show the patch weave impressed into the lead.

Patches only need to wrap the ball up and over the circumference (and a bit more).  Too big and they can ruck up ahead of the ball and will affect accuracy.   

Lube is important.  Wet is best.   Neatsfoot oil or similar works well.  Patches in a small tin, drizzle over, let soak.  Use on the wet side of dampened.  Won't affect powder for target shooting.   Excess squeezed off onto the bore as the ball is seated.  Will help clean fouling, important with tight fit.    And deter burning/charring.

Good luck.

[WadePatton]

Not sure if you've picked up this tidbit yet, so I'm going to state it clearly: a "tight enough" loading DOES require a ball starter and mindful operation of the packing stick.  Just as you see in Daryl's loading videos.

I have some storebought 535's around here somewhere I can ship to you. They're too big for me to use a substantial patch with, so I don't use them.

[JBJ]

The right combination will show patch weave at both lands and grooves. Just a lighter impression of the patch in the area of the grooves.

[BartSr]

I did have a panic moment when loading that .50 Hornady 385gr bullet with that 0.03 denim patch.  

Used a hammer to get it started and had to yank on the T-handled aluminum ramrod a lot to get it all of the way down.  The folks watching me were razzing me to see if it would blow up, calling me "pipebomb".

@Daryl,
After watching those 3 "movies" I realized that  they show relative ease in pushing the ramrod and combo down their barrels.  That isn't what I am doing with these 0.03 denim patches not anywhere near that easy.  And if a .50 bullet and a .03 patch were that tight in this barrel I may be quite sore after a days shooting. 


I do really appreciate all of the information pouring out to help me get this barrel shooting correctly,
Paul aka "pipebomb".

[Daryl]

My own feelings are patches start at .018" to .020".  To me, a .005" to .015" patch is of no use what-so-ever - not even for cleaning - a snot rag, maybe(handkerchief).

I've yet to find a ticking as thick as  12 and 14oz. denim. The thickest ticking I've found and I still have some, is a drk blue/lgt blue/red/white mattress ticking we call railroad ticking.  Well washed, it's nice and soft and measures .0235" for me with the calipers.  It works in EVERY rifle I have except the .69, which demands .030" (12oz) denim with anything but a squib load of 82gr.  In every gun except the .32, I use a ball that is .005" under bore size  with that same .0235" ticking. The .32, even with it's narrow grooves .008" deep, gets a .0320" ball and the same patch. The smaller the ball, the more easily they 'draw' into the bore.
 
All loads quite easily with the rifle's rod.

Here is a 5 shot group with a 20 bore smoothbore, one sight - no rifling - at 28 yards. A rifle should/must do better than this or something is wrong that can easily be corrected. Had a flyer, but with no rifling, it is to be expected - or I screwed up, which is entirely possible.

[BartSr]

My own feelings are patches start at .018" to .020".  To me, a .005" to .015" patch is of no use what-so-ever - not even for cleaning - a snot rag, maybe(handkerchief).

I've yet to find a ticking as thick as  12 and 14oz. denim. The thickest ticking I've found and I still have some, is a drk blue/lgt blue/red/white mattress ticking we call railroad ticking.  Well washed, it's nice and soft and measures .0235" for me with the calipers.  It works in EVERY rifle I have except the .69, which demands .030" (12oz) denim with anything but a squib load of 82gr.  In every gun except the .32, I use a ball that is .005" under bore size  with that same .0235" ticking. The .32, even with it's narrow grooves .008" deep, gets a .0320" ball and the same patch. The smaller the ball, the more easily they 'draw' into the bore.
 
All loads quite easily with the rifle's rod.

Here is a 5 shot group with a 20 bore smoothbore, one sight - no rifling - at 28 yards. A rifle should/must do better than this or something is wrong that can easily be corrected. Had a flyer, but with no rifling, it is to be expected - or I screwed up, which is entirely possible.

(pix snipped)

Daryl,

OK, thanks for the railroad ticking info.  Out here in the wild west, any ticking available in local Jo-Ann stores is really cheap ticking, very thin and sort of crummy.  I have samples of both colors, the red being about 0.014 and the blue not much more.

I guess I need to look for the "real" ticking that you folks use.

Paul

[ScottH]

Paul
 At my local "JoAnn Fabric" store in Washington they had the ticking like you mentioned, and I thought the same as you did, not very substantial fabric. So I kept looking and found a bolt of 100% cotton "twill" I think it was. It measures a bit over .020 with my caliper. I have used it successfully in my .54 Hawken that has a Bobby Hoyt barrel. Might look for that it you get back to the store. Good Luck!

[BartSr]

Just picked up a 1/4 yard (less than 2 bucks) of Bull Denim, natural color, 0.022 thick before washing.  It appears diagonal striped one side while the other side is smooth.  Lost about 1 inch on each edge due to raveling.  A two fingered squeeze on the dial calipers jaws gives me 0.023 inch thick.

PipusBombus.

[Daryl]

Bart - that .022" material might be just the ticket for .535" or better yet, .540's - I'd accept the .535's from Wade - $#*! of a great offer for a test.

I wash the patch material I purchase, twice - once with soap, the second a full cycle in just water.  The patches usually gain .001" with washing, but sometimes actually lose thickness, not a good thing.

One way to find what you should use, is to measure the diameter of the ball & the interior dimensions of the bore.

Thus- your bore as measured with calipers = .547" and .571"

Thus with a .535" ball + 2x .022"(both sides) = .579".  So far so good.  Ball+ patch = .579" - groove diameter of .571" = .008 meaning that there will be .008 divided by 2 = .004" compression in the bottoms of the grooves - each and every one of them.  That means this combination will definitely seal a light or moderate load - probalby to 90gr. 2F More, I do not know - you will have to shoot and recover patches to see.

Now - & also - just because you have the #'s to theoretically seal the bore and grooves, does not mean the load will shoot accurately - that is where experimentation with loads and further experimentation with patch thicknesses and lube come in. Incidentally, Sam NEVER shot a load this tight - if he did, he wouldn't have needed then experimenting with wads of various materials to attempt to get a seal.

[BartSr]

Daryl,

With all of the past info and even this newer info, I think I will be trying different powder loads next.

Paul

[docone]

I had an issue with shredded patches that  looked like the ones shown here.
It was oxidation on the bore. All the patches I found were shredded.
I tried putting a couple of R.E.A.L.s down the bore with one haveing Clover as lube.
It worked well. Then as I fired, the patch polished the bore. It just took that one experiment with lube to smooth the roughness.

[Daryl]

Firelapping (with lead bullets and valve grinding compound in the grooves) as "docone" mentions above, can help a lot in some bores not too badly pitted. That is the 'frosting' he speaks of - fine pitting - if full length, is generally due to the cumulative effect of flash rusting from using boiling or almost boiling hot water for cleaning. It can also be due to neglect, but that usually causes deeper pitting yet and  much deeper in the breech.

[BartSr]

Firelapping (with lead bullets and valve grinding compound in the grooves) as "docone" mentions above, can help a lot in some bores not too badly pitted. That is the 'frosting' he speaks of - fine pitting - if full length, is generally due to the cumulative effect of flash rusting from using boiling or almost boiling hot water for cleaning. It can also be due to neglect, but that usually causes deeper pitting yet and  much deeper in the breech.

I was wondering about internal barrel roughness since this was a NOS barrel having never been sealed or shot.  Maybe the age of it sitting around for years made it a bit rough inside and wasn't me cleaning it for sure.  I can pickup some .54 Hornady bullets and shoot those to help smooth out said barrel internals.

Paul

[Hungry Horse]

 My suspicion is that the combination of a cut rifled barrel, and a nearly bore sized ball, and a heavy patch, combined with a propellant that advertises that it is hotter than black powder, is the problem.
  I was taught to shoot the tightest patch ball load that I could get down the barrel. But, I was shooting modern production guns, with button rifling.This combination shot very well in production, and, kit guns. But, Button rifling is ironed in, not cut, so it is inherently smooth, with little or no sharp edges. This is not at all true of cut rifling like the barrel you have. Try shooting a smaller ball, with black powder (not Captain Whizzbangs magic powder) patched with some new cotton pocket drill( new, because cotton degrades over time) about fifteen thousandths thick. Your load has to be loose enough so when the ball obturates, it doesn't force the patch into the sharp cut rifling hard enough to cut it.

        Hungry Horse