Shredded Patches, What?

[Jeff Peters]

Daryl,
Could you explain the "Fire Lapping" procedure in greater detail and when to and not to use it
Just trying to learn something new
Thanks
Jeff

[BartSr]

Range Report, Aug/07/2015.
Still shooting without my prescription glasses which seemed to have disappeared.

50yds, 55grs of 777-FFg, 0.530 roundballs from my newly arrived Lee mold, 0.022 Bull Denim patches.
Some of the patches were 0.030 blue denim.


The paper target shot using the bull denim patches.



This dirty-bird target shot using both bull and blue denim patches.
Sorry don't know which hole is which patch.



Thanks to all - for all of the great information and tireless helping.  

I found only two of the patches, one Bull Denim and one Blue Denim since it's monsoon season and was raining cats/dogs/pumas, etc.  Those two patches were not ripped but reuseable.

All loads went down fairly easily but did require a tap from a wooden mallet for the start.

Bull Denim (Jo-Ann description here) is natural color and ravels quite heavily during washing.  Have someone either pink (pinking scissors) or zigzag stitch the edges before washing.

Paul     

[Daryl]

Daryl,
Could you explain the "Fire Lapping" procedure in greater detail and when to and not to use it
Just trying to learn something new
Thanks
Jeff

Jeff- I have never fire lapped a ML barrel, but others have.  You should have a steel loading rod to guarantee seating the bullet on the powder.
We've hand lapped a number of barrels, doing my first one back in 1974 I believe it was, where I lead-lapped in a .002" choke in a Bauska barrel for shooting slugs.  It was splendidly accurate with both MaxiBalls and as well as a 450gr. Lyman HB mould I had.  Ned Robert's book gives direstions on lead lapping.

For fire lapping, you have to impress grit in te form of valve grinding compound into the lead bullet's bearing surfaces. Rolling the bullets on a sheet of glass or steel in grit will do this. Due to the lack of lubricity, this is where the steel rod comes in handy when loading these.  You can lube them as normal- with a black powder softening lube.

It may take 40 shots to smooth out the barrel. MOST of the cutting or smoothing will take place in the breech to 1/2 way point of the barrel. If the barrel is rough full length, then lead lap it as described in Robert's book.

[oldways]

  When I buy patch material from Joann's I wash it on the delicate cycle doesn't seem to unravel as much. Also to cut my patches I use a mat made by fiskars and a clear quilters rule, the rule is 6" wide by 24" in long and has ridges on the bottom which holds the fabric. The mat is 17" by 24"also made by fiskars. I use a rotary cutter and cut strips of material or patches. I think Joann's carry these items.

[Jeff Peters]

Daryl,
Thank you,
Jeff

[Hungry Horse]

 A couple of things to consider. Patch material that ravels badly in the washing machine is usually an indication of low thread count, which means weak material, which equals blown patches. Fire lapping has ruined as many barrels as it has fixed. Hand lapping with a cast lead lap is safer, but should only be done if you are sure the bore has a rough spot. If you can't feel a rough spot with a tight patch on a cleaning jag, you probably don't have a rough spot.

         Hungry Horse

[bgf]

Just picked up a 1/4 yard (less than 2 bucks) of Bull Denim, natural color, 0.022 thick before washing.  It appears diagonal striped one side while the other side is smooth.  Lost about 1 inch on each edge due to raveling.  A two fingered squeeze on the dial calipers jaws gives me 0.023 inch thick.

PipusBombus.

I use that a lot.  Cut with pinking shears to minimize fraying.  I usually just wash by hand in coffee can with a splash of detergent in hot water and a couple of hot water soak/rinses.  Works well in my 50s with .495s and my .40 with .395s.

[Daryl]

@Daryl,
After watching those 3 "movies" I realized that  they show relative ease in pushing the ramrod and combo down their barrels.  That isn't what I am doing with these 0.03 denim patches not anywhere near that easy.  And if a .50 bullet and a .03 patch were that tight in this barrel I may be quite sore after a days shooting.

Do NOT use a cloth patch with a BULLET. Bullets are meant to be shot bare - with a lube.

The only BULLETS designed to be shot with cloth patches, were the short, weirdly shaped picket bullets - google it. They have VERY short bearing surface sides so the patch can fold properly around their noses. Elongated bullets do NOT work well with cloth patches.  The only patches used with elongated bullets were paper patches & these were used in fast twist, shallow rifled barrels. Google that too, if interested.  48" and slower twists are not meant for shooting elongated bullets - some shot OK with them on paper or for perhaps for shooting very lightly boned animals like deer.

They, the bullets from round ball twist rifles do not work well on moose, rather they work poorly on moose - generally glancing off bones and "coursing through the soft parts of the body" creating 'minor' wounds of small diameter. This, we saw here in BC - the failure of these bullets in round ball twist rifles, assisted in the game branch's idea that ML's were not suitable for moose - the "special' primitive season was closed down for moose.  To eliminate the modern bolt action ML's, the season was reopened for side hammer ML's with round balls only, but only for deer.  due to the plethora of lost wounded (found dead and rotting) bull moose that were shot with slugs from RB twist rifles, the game branch was still of the opinion that a round ball could not kill a moose and be collected by the hunter.   In moose camp, I heard all TOO often from slug shooting hunters, "I got maxis into 3 moose but lost them all, I must have only grazed them because there was hair but no blood".  They did not know that their non-expanding bullets made tiny slit entrances, not round holes that leaked. Even when shot with round balls, the slightly larger "hole" can still be easily covered by fat as soon as the moose moves.

We also found round balls were deadly on moose from .50 cal. on up. One fellow even had good luck with a .45 round ball on a bull moose, however the range was only 50 yards.  The .54 cal. through .75 cal. were very good indeed on moose. The larger the ball diameter, the better they worked - little wonder in that. Ask Bob in the Woods if his 10 bore (.77 cal.) is good for moose.

[Bob Roller]

@Daryl,
After watching those 3 "movies" I realized that  they show relative ease in pushing the ramrod and combo down their barrels.  That isn't what I am doing with these 0.03 denim patches not anywhere near that easy.  And if a .50 bullet and a .03 patch were that tight in this barrel I may be quite sore after a days shooting. 

Do NOT use a cloth patch with a BULLET. Bullets are meant to be shot bare - with a lube.

The only BULLETS designed to be shot with cloth patches, were the short, weirdly shaped picket bullets - google it. They have VERY short bearing surface sides so the patch can fold properly around their noses. Elongated bullets do NOT work well with cloth patches.  The only patches used with elongated bullets were paper patches & these were used in fast twist, shallow rifled barrels. Google that too, if interested.  48" and slower twists are not meant for shooting elongated bullets - some shot OK with them on paper or for perhaps for shooting very lightly boned animals like deer.

They, the bullets from round ball twist rifles do not work well on moose, rather they work poorly on moose - generally glancing off bones and "coursing through the soft parts of the body" creating 'minor' wounds of small diameter. This, we saw here in BC - the failure of these bullets in round ball twist rifles, assisted in the game branch's idea that ML's were not suitable for moose - the "special' primitive season as closed for moose.  We also found round balls were deadly on moose from .50 cal. on up. One fellow even had good luck with a .45 round ball on a bull moose, however the range was only 50 yards.  The .54 cal. through .75 cal. were very good indeed on moose. The larger the ball diameter, the better they worked - little wonder in that. Ask Bob in the Woods if his 10 bore (.77 cal.) is good for moose.

Probably an early proponent of the picket bullet was N.G.Whitmore that made a presentation picket ball rifle as a presentation piece for General Grant after the Civil War. He made a gain twist,12 groove barrel that put 10 of these weird bullets on a lid of a percussion cap box at 110 yards when the gun was tested. Whitmore's only comment was that he thought General Grant would find the 38 caliber rifle a good piece for target or hunting.

Bob Roller

[bob in the woods]

Within it's range capabilities, the 10 bore is the best moose or any large game gun I have used. For a longer range capability, my rifled .62 flintlock gun is the #2 most used firearm I hunt with.   I only wish that I had the benefit of this hard learned info some 30 +  years ago. 

[BartSr]

Range Report for Aug/28/2015.  

All Targets:  50 yds,  52 gr 777 FFg,  .530 RB self-cast,  Bull Denum Patches lubed with Hoppes 9 Plus.

First fuzzy target (sorry)


Second Fuzzy Target (ditto)
That clover-leaf hole has at least four shots through it and I lost count. I started shooting elsewhere not telling if the target was even hit at all.


Third Target


Barrel is becoming smoother to load and I'm starting to calm down a bit and not jerk the trigger.
For this barrel this is the 50 yard load and rear sight setting.

After we move this month, I can go out and do the 100 yard run.

The rear sight is still too close and I may have to relocate it further towards the front to keep it in focus.

Thanks again for all of you folks helping to get this barrel working.

Paul

[Daryl]

Best wishes, Paul - don't give up.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

For you old guys who have a long focal length up close, I may have a solution.  I can see adequately out to the targets, so I don't wear glasses, although my brother insists that I'm blind.  I bought a pair of .75 diopter readers at the drug store, and they are amazing for clarifying the rear sight.  Now I see the front sight dead level with the top of the rear sight, and the target is just a little fuzzy.  It has dramatically improved my shooting accuracy.

[Daryl]

.5's might even be better, however there are no .75's nor .5's in  our city. I looked everywhere I could think of. The local optometrist, suggested I pay him $175.00 and he'd make be up a set of glasses with 2 lenses - a +2.50 and a -.200. That way, I'd have a +.50.  The lens system would clamp (flip-ups) on regular sunglasses or glasses with clear lenses.  He made up a dummy set for me to try that were just awful!

However, if you can find a set of .75's or .5's- try them. They work for Taylor (too well).

[SCLoyalist]

.5's might even be better, however there are no .75's nor .5's in  our city.

Take a look at  www.eyefatigue.com  for their 'computer glasses.'  I've bought low diopter glasses from them in the past that I still use for shooting.   

[Daryl]

.5's might even be better, however there are no .75's nor .5's in  our city.

Take a look at  www.eyefatigue.com  for their 'computer glasses.'  I've bought low diopter glasses from them in the past that I still use for shooting.   

Excellent- here's  pair of .25's.

http://www.eyefatigue.com/low-power-reading-glasses/ and for $24.95 + shipping. Wonder if they'll ship over the border? Are export licenses needed for non-gun paraphernalia?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I am certain that there would be no issue ordering these from the USA, Daryl.  I think I'll try some .5's.

[Daryl]

Tried to order a pair of 25's and 50's - I do not use PayPal so could not proceed.
I may call them on the phone next week and see if I can order over the phone.

[BartSr]

OK, first time using x-sticks, first time for 100yds.
Five shots went, four hit.  First hit at the 10 ring, the rest well I got tired in this Arizona heat. (Good excuse eh?)


At least I hit the paper.  Our "Muzzle Stuffers" ring leader is trying to get us ready for the state shoot.

Paul

P.S. I picked up a Kit Hawken Flinter in .45 cal (in pieces).  Parts missing of course but it seems to be mostly there.

[BartSr]

Just a note:

Today, following my wife into Jo-Ann's (East Mesa, AZ, Recker & Main) I found some "ACA TICKING" (J0-Ann product number = 400011200701) looks just like the blue pillow ticking except it's 0.018 inches thick before washing.  Cost $7.99/yd but I had an android Jo-Ann coupon for 20% off.  I got the yard plus a remnant (1.69yds) for $6.75 which includes AZ taxes.

BartSr

[Dphariss]

Just a note:

Today, following my wife into Jo-Ann's (East Mesa, AZ, Recker & Main) I found some "ACA TICKING" (J0-Ann product number = 400011200701) looks just like the blue pillow ticking except it's 0.018 inches thick before washing.  Cost $7.99/yd but I had an android Jo-Ann coupon for 20% off.  I got the yard plus a remnant (1.69yds) for $6.75 which includes AZ taxes.

BartSr

You need to tear test this stuff. I have stopped buying blue stripe ticking. All the JoAnns seems to  be from China and tears easily down the length of the bolt. Too easily for patching. So I tear test in the store. Denim seems to work OK. So far.

[Gene Carrell]

Keep track of your used patches. I have a Hoyt 62cal barrel that has given two of us fits with torn patches. We have recrowned, changed patching material, changed lube, changed ball size all to no avail. Before the last range test, I run a green Scotchbright pad wrapped around an undersized jag 20 or so times full length of the bore. Load development is incomplete, but it no longer shreds patches and is shooting as expected.

[BartSr]

Just a note:

Today, following my wife into Jo-Ann's (East Mesa, AZ, Recker & Main) I found some "ACA TICKING" (J0-Ann product number = 400011200701) looks just like the blue pillow ticking except it's 0.018 inches thick before washing.  Cost $7.99/yd but I had an android Jo-Ann coupon for 20% off.  I got the yard plus a remnant (1.69yds) for $6.75 which includes AZ taxes.

BartSr

You need to tear test this stuff. I have stopped buying blue stripe ticking. All the JoAnns seems to  be from China and tears easily down the length of the bolt. Too easily for patching. So I tear test in the store. Denim seems to work OK. So far.

I cannot tear this stuff, it feels like canvas.

Paul

[Leatherbark]

Bart

Jo-Anns sells canvas patch material my buddy and I have used for years.  It has the same weave on both sides.  It is .0215 to .022 in diameter.  I have used the Bull Denim that you tried also but it seemed to be .024 in diameter.  One thing to note.  When you hold these cloths (any of it) to a light and can see little pin holes of light try it again after washing and drying in a dryer.  The fabric will shrink up so tight you will no longer see any pinholes of light. Plus it is softer.

That canvas fabric I mentioned that Jo-Anns sells comes in a bunch of different colors including Blaze orange.

Bob