Author Topic: Gunbroker item 496149755 (Read 16288 times)

debnal · « **on:** July 29, 2015, 10:46:07 PM »

I have no fiduciary tie to this auction and do not intend to bid on it.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=496149755

Just curious of some of the member's opinions, especially in view of the comments posted on the auction.

Al

Nate McKenzie · « **Reply #1 on:** July 29, 2015, 10:50:52 PM »

It looks more French to me.

jdm · « **Reply #2 on:** July 30, 2015, 02:04:48 AM »

I like it!!! I'm going with New England fowler.

debnal · « **Reply #3 on:** July 30, 2015, 02:28:13 AM »

Has anyone seen that type of tang carving before? I seem to remember seeing a fowler that had that same design at the barrel tang but it was executed in wire inlay.
Al

PPatch · « **Reply #4 on:** July 30, 2015, 03:02:46 AM »

That is a handsome gunne. I like it.

dave

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #5 on:** July 30, 2015, 03:07:36 AM »

I'm with Nate, on this one. I think it's French, or possibly American. I don't see anything that makes me think it's English. The shortened forestock and the bayonet lug make me think it is probably American.

Hungry Horse

JV Puleo · « **Reply #6 on:** July 30, 2015, 04:24:23 AM »

Its a very New England gun with a British lock and barrel (with Birmingham private proof marks and a maker's mark) and the fairly typical NE "French" styling. Its hard to say where this actually comes from. There are many theories, but I suspect its a combination of Huguenot refugees and captured arms from the endless conflict between the northeastern colonies and French Canada. There wasn't much trade between French America and the British colonies but there was plenty of "interaction."

There were quite a lot of Huguenots... RI even has a place called "Frenchtown" for that reason. The first two Anglican churches in the state were founded by a Huguenot.

The auction description is simply idiotic.

eddillon · « **Reply #7 on:** July 30, 2015, 04:33:18 AM »

I'm with Nate. Lock and stock profile look French. Crown proof mark is puzzling-English proofed?

jdm · « **Reply #8 on:** July 30, 2015, 05:46:35 AM »

Al' If you have Tom Grinslade's book " Flintlock Fowler's The First Guns Made In America "I bet you could find one pretty close. If I get time tomorrow I'll take a look.

Shreckmeister · « **Reply #9 on:** July 30, 2015, 06:00:02 AM »

I like Joe's assessment. The listing makes me anxious to see what the seller is going to list next. He makes it sound like an interesting collection might be following on the auction. That would be a beauty on anyones wall

debnal · « **Reply #10 on:** July 30, 2015, 06:20:22 AM »

It sure looks to be a NE fowler to me. I like the architecture and the carving but the maker was asleep during the brass furniture class.
BTW- I was brought up in East Greenwich, RI. That is where, in a rural (at that time) section of town, there was a place called Frenchtown and there were a lot of people of French descent. In the 1960's there were mostly framers there. Today it is a millionaires place to live.
Al

alex e. · « **Reply #11 on:** July 30, 2015, 06:38:37 AM »

I'd say ''french styled''. Hard ware is not French. Probably NE. I need to relook at the proof marks.. how the fro t site is held back 4-5"" is a french feature. I can't recall if they did it on NE guns,. Although the fixing of a bayonet would dictate to do so.

debnal · « **Reply #12 on:** July 30, 2015, 06:42:42 AM »

The front sight that is 4-5 inches back from the muzzle is very common on NE fowlers. But, that stands to reason since they were influenced by French guns.
The three comments from other gunbroker members are particularly interesting.
Al

Collector · « **Reply #13 on:** July 30, 2015, 10:15:14 AM »

A Long Island, NY collector I knew from a few years back, picked up one just like this from an old Long Island, NY family and had it in his personal collection.

The extended wrist, (cherry) full stock, small bored round and tapered barrel and metal ramrod- just beautiful lines. These must have been a pleasure to carry and a quick and lively pointer on rabbit, quail (lots of farms,) small waterfowl and migrating woodcock.

You can just picture guys with these long and petite fowlers, with their springer spaniels... just a great piece.

At first glance, when I first saw the GB photo, I felt, for sure, it was the same piece.

vtbuck223 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 30, 2015, 02:02:03 PM »

JVP....perhaps you or someone else can clarify something for me. If that is a Richard Wilson barrel as it appears...though the RW is oddly struck...did Wilson supply barrels to North America or would this have been restocked at some point? I see a lot of pieces with Wilson parts on them...and I know that they were a primary supplier during this time...but I didn't know that they supplied gun parts?

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #15 on:** July 30, 2015, 04:00:03 PM »

An early trade gun by Wilson is pictured in one of the many books published a few years ago on the subject. The gun in the book has the French lines like the gun being discussed, but is a hundred percent English made. The lock on the gun in the book has a lock that eventually became the standard English trade gun pattern. But who's to say earlier models didn't have a flat plated lock like the one on the gun shown. I'm beginning to think this is an early trade gun by Wilson that has been adapted to military service, by the addition of a bayonet lug.

Hungry Horse

debnal · « **Reply #16 on:** July 30, 2015, 05:49:26 PM »

I like the JVP idea of conjecture mitigated by facts and knowledge. I think that is what makes colonial guns so interesting.
In the case of this gun I believe it is a standard NE fowler.
The barrel and lock are English. A Wilson marked barrel is totally expected on an American gun. I would guess that a Wilson marked barrel or lock might be the most common English name on American made colonial guns. It seems that he sent a lot of guns (or parts) to North America during colonial times. The cherry stock implies American, if not NE. The French influenced architecture also suggests NE. The tang carving doesn't look French nor English and has an American"feel" to it (purely conjecture, but tempered with having seen a lot of cared NE fowlers). The brass furniture is naive at best, further suggesting a provincial gunstocker. That furniture might be out of place on an English trade gun or French gun. So, with the facts we know and some conjecture, I would argue that it is a NE fowler with an English barrel and lock. I think the rest of the gun was made here in the colonies.
As far as dating it, that is yet another issue. I'd be interested in opinions as to its date of manufacture.
JMHO
Al

Avlrc · « **Reply #17 on:** July 30, 2015, 05:56:41 PM »

Just opened the latest issue of American Tradition. Short article on page 36 addressing the French influence on American guns.

debnal · « **Reply #18 on:** August 03, 2015, 06:33:06 AM »

Auction over, sold for $4625.00. I think selling on online auctions starting at $1 with no reserve may be the way to go.
Al

Avlrc · « **Reply #19 on:** August 03, 2015, 08:35:13 PM »

Quote from: debnal on August 03, 2015, 06:33:06 AM

Auction over, sold for $4625.00. I think selling on online auctions starting at $1 with no reserve may be the way to go.
Al

It gets the feeding frenzy started. But you still need a quality piece, such as this one. Oh, another thing. Those comments he added from other gunbroker members helped. I think the last comment, probably got the seller another grand or so.

JTR · « **Reply #20 on:** August 03, 2015, 08:39:56 PM »

Well that was a nice gun, but I think that was All the money, and then some!

John

Majorjoel · « **Reply #21 on:** August 03, 2015, 09:40:46 PM »

I have tried the one dollar start with no reserve on a couple of very nice contemporary rifle's. They both ended at giveaway prices. I have learned that timing is very important with Gunbroker auctions, along with your choice of wording in the subject heading. I like to sell during the pre hunting season time of year and the auction ending to take place at a late afternoon or early evening hour during the weekend. I agree with JTR that this piece sold on the extreme high end. It is nice to see this happen these days, especially with a good gun!

debnal · « **Reply #22 on:** August 03, 2015, 10:27:29 PM »

The last comment was very humorous indeed. But, I agree, it probably helped.
Al

rich pierce · « **Reply #23 on:** August 04, 2015, 10:02:05 PM »

Nice price for a top quality piece though well cleaned. What are anyone's thoughts about the prices of original fowling pieces compared to cost of a similar contemporary copy?

debnal · « **Reply #24 on:** August 04, 2015, 11:37:16 PM »

Rich,
It seems to me that high quality original Rev War period American fowler will bring significantly more than the modern made guns. That is what I primarily collect and that has been my experience. While I have seen many very high quality modern made rifles (some bringing more money that originals), the same can't be said for fowlers.
Al

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Author Topic: Gunbroker item 496149755 (Read 16288 times)

eddillon