Modern Fowler Barrel Wall Thickness Question

[Ray-Vigo]

I'm looking at using a modern 20 gauge fowler with both ball and shot. I picked it up second hand- it has good balance and fits me nicely.

Is there any guide as to what thickness the barrel wall must be at the muzzle for use of ball?

The breech is a pretty common octagon type, then it has the band and round section. It actually has a pretty nice looking "double sided" section before it fuses to the round profile. The barrel walls are a fair bit thinner at the muzzle than my 12 gauge musket barrel.  The calipers put this barrel wall at the muzzle at something like .060 inches. 

This isn't as thin as some old time shotgun barrels I've seen, but it's definitely a thinner, lighter barrel than my 12 gauge musket or my rifles. I think this smoothbore is going to be a lot of fun.

[Stormrider51]

R-V,   Nice looking smoothie from what I can see.  Left handed, too.  I'm a lefty who has shot right handed flinters for so long that I wouldn't know how to act if the lock was on the "correct" side.  Getting around to your question, I have a Dutch Club Butt fowler 20 gauge with a 42" barrel that mics 0.091" at the muzzle.  I also have a Northwest Trade Gun 20 that mics thicker but then it's also shorter at 38".  So by comparison to my guns the barrel on yours is thinner at the muzzle but I wouldn't let that bother me.  To put things in perspective, I use a 1 oz charge of #6 shot.  One of the .613 balls I use weighs 0.7 oz.  So the ball is actually lighter than a shot charge.  I use the same 1/8" overpowder card and thin overshot card for both so pressures are lower for the ball.  I shoot 65 gr FFFg and as much as 80 gr FFg with good results.  You should be able to do the same.

John

[Daryl]

I see no problem with using ball or shot in this gun.  Ball weight being some 3/4ounces or even lighter for a .595" ball, I see no conflicts at all.

[Ray-Vigo]

The muzzle is .615 or .616 caliber on my caliper. I figure a .595 ball with a medium patch would be my ball load. I am not a deer guy but do plink and shoot some competition out to 50 yds with ball.  I figure the starting charge would be 60 grains of FF Goex.

[Hungry Horse]

 While your experimenting with loads for this smoothy, try just dropping a bare ball down on top of about seventy-five or eighty grains of 2F black powder, and cover it with a piece of old wool blanket saturated with a good patch grease, like venison tallow or mutton tallow. Sure is easy to load, shoots all day without cleaning, and often outshoots a patched ball by a mile.

     Hungry Horse

[moleeyes36]

The muzzle is .615 or .616 caliber on my caliper. I figure a .595 ball with a medium patch would be my ball load. I am not a deer guy but do plink and shoot some competition out to 50 yds with ball.  I figure the starting charge would be 60 grains of FF Goex.

That's probably a good starting point for working up a load.  I had a 20 gauge "Canoe Gun" with a 24 inch barrel that only weighed 5 1/2 pounds.  I found it shot patched round balls very well with 65 grains of Swiss ffg.  Also, at only 5 1/2 pounds the felt recoil became "unpleasant"  with much hotter charges.

Mole Eyes 

[Ray-Vigo]

Interesting. Does it lead the bore? Are you using an overpowder cushion or cardboard plug? I would think a larger ball than 595 might be needed without the patch.

While your experimenting with loads for this smoothy, try just dropping a bare ball down on top of about seventy-five or eighty grains of 2F black powder, and cover it with a piece of old wool blanket saturated with a good patch grease, like venison tallow or mutton tallow. Sure is easy to load, shoots all day without cleaning, and often outshoots a patched ball by a mile.

     Hungry Horse

[Stormrider51]

Ray,
One of the things that made me a fan of smoothbores is the wide range of loading possibilities.  You can do as Hungry Horse said and drop the ball directly onto the powder charge followed by something to keep it from rolling back out.  Here's a list of other things I've tried.
1.  patched ball
2.  a wad of tow over the powder with another over the ball
3.  wads of grass or leaves
4.  wasp nests
5.  a 1/8" card wad over the powder and a thin card over the ball


All worked pretty well.  The PRB and cut wads gave best accuracy but the tow wadding worked almost as well.  I haven't noticed any leading with any load and I use a .613" ball in a .615" bore,

[Daryl]

Ray - here's a load that shoots fairly well in this 20 bore modern reproduction of an English-type single.

The crowing modification allows you to load a tight ball and patch combination that usually shows better accuracy.








After the job noted above, using 320 wet or dry paper (or emery cloth. Run a patch down about 2" to collect the grindings and grit from the paper, then pull it out with needle nosed plyers or nose hair tweezers. ( )

[Ray-Vigo]

Here is the whole gun- full stock, 42 inch barrel, lefty flintlock. The lock should probably be French or English in style for this sort of gun, but lefties have a more limited selection. My 12 gauge has a Caywood lefty English type. I'll admit I do like the Siler for parts availability and functioning.

[Hungry Horse]

 The theory behind the bare ball accuracy is the powder charge floods out around the unpatched ball, and centers it in the bore. This is also the reason for heavier charges, and undersized balls. Smooth bores were rarely shot with a patched ball. In fact there is a reference in an old trappers journal describing an ambush by Indians shooting trade guns, that mentions them being so close they could see the blanket wadding after each shot.

  Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

Interesting, HH- there are shooters at Helfey Creek Rendezvous who shoot mostly or only smoothbores. Many of these guys are getting a little long in the tooth and due to eye-sight problems have reverted to only having to see one of them that is out there from 38" to 55" from the breech.

There are one or two who shoot loose ball and wads - they have never been in the winner's circle for the smoothbore events.

The guys who win the smoothbore events shoot snug ball and cloth patch loads, in fact 3 come to mind right off and their scores usually rival the best rifle shooters on the same trail, with shots out to about 120yards. The only time I even placed in the top 3, was with an original H. Whall 11 bore single shot ball and shot gun, smoothbore. Only a front sight, but a VERY heavy breech (1 3/8") for Indian or African hunting with round ball, however it had a typical thin muzzle, perhaps .030" thick.  It shot fairly well and I lucked into a 3rd place with it on a rifle trail, missing 4- maybe 5 targets if I remember correctly. The first place, native guide chap from Alberta, missed none  & - beating ALL of the rifle scores. He also shoots a cloth patched ball.



JJ Turner (UK) makes marvelous mounds. I have a few of his moulds and use a .595" Turner mould in my 20 bore, now, with .0235" ticking patches.  They use standard Lyman handles.

[Hungry Horse]

 Daryl;

  I guess we shall have to agree to disagree. I shoot a light North Star .20 ga. 42" barreled Curly gun, with a thin barrel like our new friend. I also am as you say "long in the tooth". I was taught to load as you prescribe, and did so for many years. But, after shooting at a primitive rendezvous in Oregon against some very good Canadian shooters ( who actually outshot many of the rifle shooters) I changed my regime. I had a hard time not swabbing after every few shots, and dealing with patching, and lubricants, of all kinds, but giving up my little hammer, and the near bore sized balls, was the hardest. But, I did, and have never looked back. I lead a two four man teams to the winners circle two years in a row, in a very hard survival walk, in Northern Calif., and outshot two of the rifle shooters, with my smoothy
 I believe this loading method is safer than the ultra tight patch ball arrangement you prescribe. Even with heavy charges, the venting action of the undersized ball, combined with the lack of a patch, or a wad, generates very light recoil. This tells me it also generates little pressure.        Hungry Horse

[Stormrider51]

I have to agree with HH.  I pursued the elusive one-hole-group with rifles for many years with some success.  A tight patch/ball combination always gave best accuracy.  Now into my third year of shooting strictly smoothbores (and long in the tooth), I've found that while a tightly patched ball usually gives good accuracy such is not always the case.  Card wads always match and sometimes exceed the accuracy of the PRB.  Much to my surprise, wads of tow come in a close second and, as HH noted, recoil is much more pleasant.  Attached is a photo of a five-shot group fired from 25 yards using wads.  The balls are .613 from a Tanner mould.  The wads were Circle Fly 1/8" over powder and a thin over shot.  Powder charge was 65 gr FFFg.  The gun was my Dutch Club Butt fowling piece.  A photo of shots using a tight PRB would look so much like that one that you couldn't tell the difference.  I choose to use wads because it simplifies what I need to carry in order to shoot.  I can go with ball, buckshot, or birdshot with the wads.  No need to carry separate patch material just for balls.

My point is that there's no one way that works best for all shooters or firearms.  What works for me works for me and I only offer it as something to try.  I suggest that newcomers try them all.  That's part of the fun of muzzleloading.

John

   

[Daryl]

How many shots do you fire before you lose this accuracy and have to wipe the bore out? 
With no patch to wipe the previous shot clean and keep the last shot's fouling wet, the fouling would tend to build up shot to shot.., changing the bore's condition, shot to shot.

[Stormrider51]

Daryl,
I use the Dutch Schoultz technique of wiping the bore between shots.  One pass in and out with a mix of Ballistol and water.  Wiping the bore has never bothered me.  By doing so I can put shot after shot in the same place with no fouling build-up.  I'm aware that you advocate a no-wipe method and have good results with it.  That's fine and works for you.  My way works for me.  As I said before, there is no "one way".  A shooter is wise to try various methods and see what works best for them.  Here's a photo of a target fired on the same day at the same distance with the same smoothbore.  Instead of wads I used a small wad of tow over the powder, dropped in the ball, and put another wad of tow over that.  I also increased the powder charge to 70 gr FFFg.  A crosswind had also kicked up a bit.

Regards,
John

[bob in the woods]

I used to shoot patched balls in my smoothbores, but gave it up. Ever since I tried paper cartridges, I've converted to them exclusively. Even use them in my rifle for hunting. In my 20 bore , I use a .600 ball and 90 gr of 2 F in the cartridge. The ball end is dipped in a mix of bear oil and beeswax. It is a very soft mix.  This combo is very accurate in my gun. If firing a number of rounds on a very hot day, I'll spit on the end of the cartridge before loading, but usually fouling is not a problem.

[moleeyes36]

.....Instead of wads I used a small wad of tow over the powder, dropped in the ball, and put another wad of tow over that.......

I never tried that method but I can't imagine that you wouldn't have significant risk of smoldering tow coming out of that gun and causing a real danger of starting the woods on fire when hunting.  I don't believe you could avoid the problem of igniting the tow, at least to the point of smoldering, when it's sitting directly on top of the powder.  Just my tuppence worth.

Mole Eyes

[Stormrider51]

Moleeyes,
That's a valid concern.  I've tried tow wads in seven different smoothbores amounting to a couple hundred shots.  On one occasion I did have a wad of smoldering tow ignite some dry grass.  This was in the middle of the extreme drought we were having.  Luckily, there was a water hose nearby.  As a side note, a wad of green grass or leaves works almost as well without the fire risk.  Anyway, the fire risk is one reason why I settled on using card wads.  I can load anything from ball to birdshot using the wads, accuracy is good, and I don't run the risk of becoming infamous as the guy who set Bastrop County, Texas on fire.  Folks around here are a little touchy about wildfires after the one a few years ago.

John

[Hungry Horse]

 I agree with those that are concerned about setting a wildfire with their wadding. I am at home, as we speak, twenty mile from the Rocky fire in California, so I know about wildfires. This is why I prefer wool blanket material for my wadding, and venison, or mutton tallow for my lube. The wool doesn't hold a spark well, even when dry, and the tallow has the highest flash point of anything I have tried.
 Oh, and the undersized ball allows me to shoot in excess of ten shots without swabbing the bore. The most inaccurate shot quite often is the first one shot on a clean bore, in my experience. When hunting with round balls, I alway shoot a fouling shot of just powder to foul the bore.

          Hungry Horse

[Ray-Vigo]

Moleeyes,
That's a valid concern.  I've tried tow wads in seven different smoothbores amounting to a couple hundred shots.  On one occasion I did have a wad of smoldering tow ignite some dry grass.  This was in the middle of the extreme drought we were having.  Luckily, there was a water hose nearby.  As a side note, a wad of green grass or leaves works almost as well without the fire risk.  Anyway, the fire risk is one reason why I settled on using card wads.  I can load anything from ball to birdshot using the wads, accuracy is good, and I don't run the risk of becoming infamous as the guy who set Bastrop County, Texas on fire.  Folks around here are a little touchy about wildfires after the one a few years ago.

John

I do have a bunch of those Circle Fly card wads. I have the thin overshot card, the 1/8 cardboard plug, and the larger/fiber cushion.

The larger fiber cushions are not lubricated though. Is there a method for lubricating those Circle Fly fiber cushions/plugs? I was thinking they would have to be "cooked up" in a pot of melted tallow or Crisco or something like that. I'm going to have to make a few up before I take out the fowler to shoot at the range in a couple weeks.

[Hungry Horse]

 If you insist on using those cushion wads, the best way to lube them is with hard tallow melted in a shoe polish tin over the top of a candle lantern. You need only dip the tip of the ragged end into the hot mixture, and set it aside to harden. Any more tallow than that will make a solid plug that will blow the center out of your shot pattern. The majority of the wad should remain dry, so it comes apart after leaving the barrel. If the wads are the 3/4" size break them in half.

           Hungry Horse

[smokinbuck]

When I used the cushion wads, but don't any more, I broke them in half and then put them into a jar and poured olive oil over them. After they had soaked for a while I out them into a strainer and let them drip out the excess for a day or two. You can also squeeze them for good measure. I have found my patterns to be twice as good, or better, with only OP cards and OS cards.
Mark

[James Rogers]

I used to melt a beeswax/olive oil concoction and pour just a pit in a shallow pan. I would roll the fiber wads in it so that only the sides got covered and then split them in half.

[Ray-Vigo]

Interesting- I will try both the plugs with the tips dipped in tallow and the card method with bird shot. I am not hellbent on using the cushions, just happened to have a bag of them here. I guess a trip to the patterning board is in order for the shot. I have a buddy with a Brown Bess carbine who wants to try shooting a little trap. I'm thinking this gun is light enough to give that a try eventually.

As for ball, I am going to try both the patched ball and the loose ball with blanket wad over the top of it.

I like these smooth bores because I get my pick of visiting the trap range with shot or going down to the target range and shooting ball. I am hoping this 20 gauge becomes a lightweight companion to the heavier, 12 gauge musket I have.