First Flintlock Rifle or Musket

[The Rambling Historian]

Thank you for welcoming me to your community.  I am in the market for my first flintlock. I have never owned a muzzle loader before but do get the privilege of working with a wide variety of antique and reproduction firearms on a daily basis. I have worked with rifles by Armstrong, Beck,
Neihart, Schweitzer, Spitzer, and many other original American gunmakers along with those made by some of today's craftsmen. I had some TVM rifles on my desk just today and a few mid-19th century percussion long rifles. I am particularly interested in trade rifles and Northwest Trade Guns but now I am getting off topic.

I know the conventional wisdom is often to recommend a percussion gun as a first muzzle loader but frankly that isn't the route I want to go. I am looking for the community's recomendations on a good and fairly affordable first rifle or fowler. I have found some nice prices on the Lyman Trade Rifles on .50 cal and have heard good things about their quality, but I am also attracted to some of the reproduction Fusil de Chasse that I have seen thought I know they are probably lower quality Indian imports. I was also looking at the Pedersoli Kentucky pistol on .45. I also noticed the canoe trade gun over in the classifieds.

Any recommendations and information is much appreciated.

[retired fella]

Build them all.  Why stop at one?  Once you get the first one under your belt it's all good from there.  Welcome to the madness!!!

[Mike Brooks]

Thank you for welcoming me to your community.  I am in the market for my first flintlock. I have never owned a muzzle loader before but do get the privilege of working with a wide variety of antique and reproduction firearms on a daily basis. I have worked with rifles by Armstrong, Beck,
Neihart, Schweitzer, Spitzer, and many other original American gunmakers along with those made by some of today's craftsmen. I had some TVM rifles on my desk just today and a few mid-19th century percussion long rifles. I am particularly interested in trade rifles and Northwest Trade Guns but now I am getting off topic.

I know the conventional wisdom is often to recommend a percussion gun as a first muzzle loader but frankly that isn't the route I want to go. I am looking for the community's recomendations on a good and fairly affordable first rifle or fowler. I have found some nice prices on the Lyman Trade Rifles on .50 cal and have heard good things about their quality, but I am also attracted to some of the reproduction Fusil de Chasse that I have seen thought I know they are probably lower quality Indian imports. I was also looking at the Pedersoli Kentucky pistol on .45. I also noticed the canoe trade gun over in the classifieds.

Any recommendations and information is much appreciated.

I personally wouldn't buy any of those.

[T*O*F]

I personally wouldn't buy any of those.

Ditto.  You might want to consider a Northwest Trade gun as your first flintlock.  Due to their simplicity of design, they are near the bottom rung costwise.  Yet they will perform well for most uses you might want other than precision target shooting.

[The Rambling Historian]

So the Track of the Wolf kit would be a good place to start? Is the build pretty quick and easy? That's what I wanted to do eventually anyways.

[Ky-Flinter]

Rambling Historian,

First, welcome to ALR.  Hope you enjoy your time here.

I'm not sure of the direction you want to go.  Do you want to buy a finished gun, or build one yourself?  There are several nice guns for sale here currently and quite a few talented fellows here that could build you whatever you want.  I have not built a TOW kit, but I imagine they are similar to Dunlap or Chambers "kits".  They aren't really "kits" but more an assemblage of parts that can be worked up into a gun.  I would not say they are a "quick" build for the beginning builder and probably not "easy", but with a few tools and some familiarity with wood and metal working, the beginner can build a credible piece.  Good luck on your journey!

-Ron

[The Rambling Historian]

I see pros to building and getting a ready made piece. I don't have a lot of wood or metal working experience, but you have to start somewhere. The key thing is to satisfy my NEED to shoot one. I work with these guns all the time and studied the fur trade and settlements in the Upper Mississippi River Valley pretty extensively as part of my masters in history. My wife and I are just getting started going to the rendezvous events in the area so something I might be able to use for their shooting events in the future would be a plus. I am definitely more attracted to a fowling piece though I certainly have a keen respect for long rifles and Hawken's Plains rifles. Aside from their obvious role in the fur trade, the Northwest Trade Guns also have a special place for me since my background knowledge of them is what helped me land my current position evaluating, researching, and writing about antique firearms. One of the first real tests for me at my work was looking into a full mountain rack of trade guns that no one else there really new much about. It was loads of fun. I haven't seen very many more in over a year but we have a lot of long rifles and Plains rifles coming through currently.

(EDIT) Fixed the typos due to originally posting from a phone.

[Mike Brooks]

If you are going to shoot and go to rendezvous I'd recommend Something other than the guns you have mentioned above. I generally don't recommend TVM products but in your case this may be a good start. You can find them used pretty cheap if you keep your eyes open. Even new they aren't that expensive. There are some guys here that could build you a poor boy rifle or fowler that is historically correct and well built for a reasonable amount of money.

[The Rambling Historian]

I haven't seen any of the custom built guns in my price range. I may just need to hold back for a while and set aside some extra funds. I certainly don't want to buy something just to want or need to replace it within a few years. Can a fowling piece from a smaller shop be had for under $1,000? So far I haven't seen any except some that show up used from time to time in somewhat worn but overall very good working condition.

[Ed Wenger]

Can a fowling piece from a smaller shop be had for under $1,000?

In a word, no.  Especially if you want it to be in decent shape.  Parts alone are going to run close to, if not over, $1K.  I'd be inclined to listen to Mike...  Good luck!


      Ed

[D. Buck Stopshere]

Here's a piece of advice. Attend the largest rendezvous you can get your hands around, and look at the fowlers that show up. I don't know what part of the country you're in, but if you can find time to attend the Fort Frederick Market Faire in late April in western MD, that's the rifle/fowler "playground". Not only do you see dozens and dozens of choices, you can meet the gunmaker in person. An alternative to that would either be Dixon's Gunmakers Fair in July or the CLA Show in Lexington,KY in August.

These events are the "cream of the crop" when looking at the widest assortment of fowlers and (excuse the pun) "You Get To Meet Your Maker".  :-)  Hands-on experience to say the least and hard to beat. The more examples you get your hands on, the more educated and confident you will be about your purchase.

[Mike Brooks]

I haven't seen any of the custom built guns in my price range. I may just need to hold back for a while and set aside some extra funds. I certainly don't want to buy something just to want or need to replace it within a few years. Can a fowling piece from a smaller shop be had for under $1,000? So far I haven't seen any except some that show up used from time to time in somewhat worn but overall very good working condition.

Save up another $500-$800. You'll have something you'll keep for a while that way. Otherwise you're going to spend $1000 on something that just isn't quite right and you will regret later.

[bob in the woods]

If the $1000.00 limit is fixed, or if  it will take a fair while more to save up the $500 to $800. additional funds, you could always just buy a Chambers kit [ they have a few smoothbore kits ] and use the time to build it. You'll have lots of help from the board here, but the important thing is that you'll have a decent gun when done.  My main gun for years has been a Chambers New England Fowling gun.  It's a fantastic gun and it has taken all kinds of game from deer, and bears, to turkeys.  If a smaller bore would be more useful for you, go with one of their other styles.  You won't regret it.

[The Rambling Historian]

So realistically I need $800-$1,000 for a Chambers or other quality kit and build one myself (which I am open to) or save up $1,500-$2,000 to have someone build me a still relatively plainer grade gun. I am certainly leaning towards something plainer like a fowler, fusil de chasse, trade gun, or perhaps a poor boy rifle rather than something ornate like a Lancaster inspired long rifle. However, if I go ornate I could probably convince my wife to hang it in the living room  . Most hunting in our area if I did hunt with it is within shotgun range. Outside of varmints and primitive seasons my understanding is shotguns and bow hunting are really all that is allowed.

I really appreciate all of your input. You guys have been very welcoming and helpful. I particularly like D. Buck Stopshere's idea of seeking out a large event, so I can get my hands on as many examples and pick something I truly like. I live in the Midwest, so I am not sure what the biggest event around here would be. The events I have been to so far haven't had many flintlocks at all and really not very many percussion guns either. It seemed like most of the guys there for the shooting contests either had Lyman rifles, Pedersoli rifles and muskets, or kit rifles. I am within driving distance of Chicago, St. Louis, Milwaukee, Madison, etc. but not terribly close to any big metropolitan area. I think the River Thru History Rendezvous in Des Plaines, IL is the biggest one close by, but I have just started attending these events and do not know whats all around or best. Any further suggestions for big and fun events is definitely welcome. Also, any particular makers to look for and or brands/makers to avoid would be very helpful. I have a pretty good idea of what looks authentic, but I know that there can be hidden quality issues with some muzzle loaders that aren't readily visible such as rock crushing spring strengths, odd chambers, etc.

I will probably be waiting until Spring at this point unless I stumble upon a good deal. Hopefully I get a decent year end bonus to help pick up a quality piece.

Thank you all for your input. Any further advice is very welcome. I will certainly be keeping an eye on the boards here especially after seeing how helpful and friendly this community is.

Best,
Seth

[bob in the woods]

Look at the Chambers Penn. fowler,  perhaps in 20 bore , as an example. It's a wonderful gun, and will serve you well for the rest of your days.   Or, another option- get M. Brooks to build a Carolina gun for you.  Getting lesser quality stuff usually resulted in my spending my money twice      It's cheaper to buy something of quality the first time.

[Joe S.]

there was parts of me that say don't go crazy spending a pile of cash and finding your not to into it and you wasted your money.Then there parts that say you buy something cheap and it does not perform and you get discouraged and lose interest.I have seen this with other pastimes as well,so I would save up the money for a decent shooting iron you will be happy with.Only you know if you have the skills required to build one.Something to be said for one you build yourself but if you have the dough to have one built by a master is also special.As far a what that's a personal choice, what do you plan to hunt with it,just shoot paper with it ect.If ya know some folks with a few see if you can go out with them to the range or borrow them and see what you like and are comfortable with,always good advice,good luck!

[Mike Brooks]

I'm going to take a wild guess and ask if you are Seth Isaacson.......

[Darrin McDonal]

When it comes to a NW trade gun kit, North Star West. Track uses straight - not tapered Oct to round barrels and they really don't feel correct at all. Northstar West trade guns are much more authentic which means they are light and balanced.

[T*O*F]

I sent you a PM...did you get it?

As for IL events, I was on the steering committee for the I&M Canal Rendezvous in Willow Springs and also director of the volunteer group who ran it.  Few IL events have any guns to speak of.  You will have to hit some of the spring shows in Green Bay, Conner Prairie, Effingham, or the big one in northern IN.....the name eludes me at the moment.

[D. Buck Stopshere]

Go to: wwwkalamazooshow.com

The largest, nationally recognized, juried show in the Midwest devoted to pre-1890 original or reproduction living history supplies, accouterments and related crafts.  More than 10,000 historical re-enactors from pre-Revolutionary through the Civil War, history buffs, collectors, and the general public from 18 states and Canada come together for a festive weekend to buy, sell and trade.  The event attracts over 270 of the finest craftspeople and dealers of living history supplies and related crafts from throughout the United States.

Next show is March 19-20, 2016

If this posting is against "The House Rules", feel free to delete. "I have no dog in this fight", just wanted to offer to point the event to our friend here in hopes he will see the value of driving the distance to educate himself.

Buck Buchanan
Field Rep-NC
NMLRA

[The Rambling Historian]

Thanks again for more great information. I replied to the PMs. I'll definitely make the Kalamazoo event on my calendar.

Good to know about the North Star West vs TOTW kits.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Have you checked the guns for sale on this website?  There seem to be several flintlock fowling and trade guns available for slightly more than $1000. 

dave

[Marcruger]

I was in your spot a while back.

I wanted a nice longrifle, but found only junk or Italian in the "under $1k" territory.  Then a huge leap to $2k+ handmade works of art.

My very experienced muzzleloader friend and competitor wisely advised, "Think about what you make per hour. Think about how long it would take you to make a rifle. Would YOU build one for $2k?" I saw his point.

Luckily, I blundered into a handmade Lancaster that was maybe built by a lower skill maker. It got me shooting and scratched the itch until I saved up for a handmade gun of my dreams.

All of that said, my friend recently bought two Tip Curtis flintlocks new. Around $1400 each. Beautiful wood. No carving, inlays or patchbox. They are however something you would be proud to own, shoot and show. Colerain barrels. They do shoot!

What I am trying to share is that there is a middle ground, and I think if I were you I would stretch and save. I have also seen some darned nice Mountain guns here by some sharp makers for $1500. It is better to buy a GOOD gun once, than buy a poor one and replace it later.
Best wishes, and God Bless, Marc

[Marcruger]

One of the members here is selling a Tip Curtis .50 for $1100. Not far from your budget. Search the name Leatherbark and you will see his posting. I don't know him. Best wishes, Marc

[The Rambling Historian]

Thanks again guys for all of your advice. I will keep an eye out and try to set aside enough to pick something up this spring. We will definitely be checking out the Kalamazoo show.