Roundball and patching question please? Patches releasing?

[Marcruger]

Great ideas and sources, and again my thanks.  Having very experienced folks to lean on sure helps. 

What are you guys using to cut patches?  Scissors?

I have used in my old gun Teflon that I drive in under the ball, gather it, and cut it flush with a patch knife.  If it is not pre-lubed, how do you lube the spot that goes in under the ball without a pretty big mess? 

On pre-cut patches, I can see that lubing is easy in a variety of ways.  I was trying the pre-lubed ones as it seemed an easy place to start. 

Can't wait for the work week to end and Saturday to arrive.  :-)   

By the way, I am using a Chambers Late Ketland lock.  Whooooeee is it fast.  It doesn't go "chick-boom" or "chick-crack", it just goes "CRACK" when the trigger  breaks.  Great lock. 

Best wishes and God Bless,   Marc

[Daryl]

Great ideas and sources, and again my thanks.  Having very experienced folks to lean on sure helps.  

What are you guys using to cut patches?  Scissors?

I have used in my old gun Teflon that I drive in under the ball, gather it, and cut it flush with a patch knife.  If it is not pre-lubed, how do you lube the spot that goes in under the ball without a pretty big mess?  

On pre-cut patches, I can see that lubing is easy in a variety of ways.  I was trying the pre-lubed ones as it seemed an easy place to start.  

Can't wait for the work week to end and Saturday to arrive.  :-)  

By the way, I am using a Chambers Late Ketland lock.  Whooooeee is it fast.  It doesn't go "chick-boom" or "chick-crack", it just goes "CRACK" when the trigger  breaks.  Great lock.  

Best wishes and God Bless,   Marc

Good question, Mark.  here, in the Great White North, many of us use a large bearing race from a large axle or shaft.  I grind (6-8" bench grinder) one radiused side off until it is fairly sharp edged. The spinning race makes for a perfectly symmetrical grind, all the way around.  We then use a large diameter ball bearing for cutting out a single patch at a time- it takes very little time to cut out a hundred or more. Probably faster than cutting square patches with scissors - which I've also used.

Another method is using ARCH punch, available at some hardware stores. I use a .700" for .32 cal., 1 1/4" for the .58 and borrow Taylor's 1 1/2" for cutting patches for the .69 rifle.

1st of all, here are some short starters, needed to "easily" start tight ball and patch combinations. The sort stud is used to push the ball and patch just below the surface of the muzzle. It starts the ball virtually in line with the muzzle, if used with some modicum of care.



Notice how easily this .445" ball and .0225" patch is started and loaded in my .45 rifle, with a .450" bore. I have shot between 50 and 55 shots without EVER wiping the bore during the day's shooting.  We are finishing up the day just to make this video. No wiping is done by anyone - that is how we all shoot - including our wifes and children.



The arch punches and bearing races with balls.  The smaller the ball compared to the bearing race, hole, the larger the patch from THAT bearing race. The ball is struck with a hammer - NO- a ball has NEVER shattered when struck and we've cut thousands and thousands of patches this way - but - you are on your own.  You are much more likely to be hit by a car from behind as you are walk down a sidewalk in a rural area (sidewalk - yeah - right), than have a ball bearing bearing break as you strike it with a hammer and have that shard or piece injure you. I still wear glasses when doing cutting patches. Ya never know.  

[hanshi]

No one has mentioned it yet but to keep the fouling "soft" in the bore I blow down the barrel after each shot.  This is not a recommendation or condemnation of the practice it's simply that by blowing into the barrel the fouling absorbs the moisture from my breath.

[SCLoyalist]

My patch cutting is a lot lower tech than Daryl's.    For my .54,  a round patch would be 1-3/8" in diameter.   I cut a strip of cloth 1-3/8" wide, then cut crossways to produce a pile of 1-3/8" square patches.   Since the corners on square patches tend to get caught by my loading jag,  I put about 5 or six square patches in a pile and snip the corners off to produce octagons.  Can produce 100 patches in about 30 minutes or so while watching TV.   Equipment required is a pair of scissors and a metal ruler.   Lately, I don't lube until loading.

For using a strip of material and cutting at the muzzle,  you could spit lube it by putting the next available material in your mouth and chewing a bit,  or could try Dutch Schoulz's dry lube method (e.g. mix up water soluble oil and water 1:7 ratio, soak a strip of the patch material in it, let dry, and tie the dried strip onto your possibles bag strap), or could have a container of grease in your bag and put some on your finger and rub a dollop on the patch strip where the ball is about to go.

[bgf]

For lubing patches cut at muzzle, I cut the material into strips before hand washing.  At loading time, I spray the end of the strip with a small bottle of water before putting on the muzzle.  I use the small spray bottles you can find in the travel section at Walmart, and I see a lot of others using the same.  They are nice in that you can tailor the amount of lube fairly easily.  I also keep one with alcohol in it for wiping out oil before shooting and cleaning off the frizzen and pan.

[hanshi]

I cut my own with scissors into little squares, too.  They work just fine.

[bgf]

As long as they are uniform, square shoots fine.  If you keep a cleaning jag on the rod, however, the corners can catch.  I use squares in the woods where I use the rifle's rod with just the loading tip.

[smylee grouch]

I know of one shooter who scourers the thrift stores and pawn shops for worn out hole saws,grinds off the teeth and puts an edge on the new area, chuckes the thing up in his drill press and cuts through 8 layers of patching material at once.

[BartSr]

Just a word of caution to anyone buying fabric for patches at JoAnne's or some other store like that.  Carefully check the label on the bolt to make sure it is 100% cotton.  Some fabrics, especially ticking and denim, are now made in China and many have some synthetic content added in order to lower the price.  When I find what I want, I buy a few yards ahead to make sure I don't have trouble finding it again.  Buyer beware.

Mole Eyes

Yes, I agree.

[moleeyes36]

No one has mentioned it yet but to keep the fouling "soft" in the bore I blow down the barrel after each shot.  This is not a recommendation or condemnation of the practice it's simply that by blowing into the barrel the fouling absorbs the moisture from my breath.

Hanshi,

Not to stir the pot, but as a Range Safety Officer and a NMLRA Instructor I just have to say something here.  I don't know how you blow down the barrel; if you use a flexible plastic tube to blow down the barrel where you can avoid putting your head in line with the muzzle, that's okay.  But placing your head over the muzzle and blowing down the barrel is a serious safety violation that can get a person disqualified from many matches and on some ranges, sent home. 

Again, I'm not trying to stir the pot.  But with many relatively new shooters on the ALR forum I'd hate for them to think that it's okay to place their head over the muzzle and blow down the barrel.  Peace.

Mole Eyes   

[hanshi]

Moleeyes, Since I don't compete in matches there's no one to admonish me.  And, yes, a tube does look better to those who run these shoots.  But all my guns are single shots and pose no danger after firing.

[Herb]

Natureboy said he used JoAnn linen and he couldn't find the patches and a fire was started with them.  He probably was using JoAnn's "Robe 55 natural linen, #11770658", which is 55% linen and 45% rayon.  Costs about $5.95 per yard.  She has a linen that will work in small calibers, "Sew Classics 100% linen, #01299189", 52" wide, at $16.99 per yard.  I mike this at .012, crushed to .008.  It worked in my .40 St. Louis Hawken I built.

[Marcruger]

Hi Folks, 
I had time to go to the range today.  I bumped up to .495 roundballs from the .490s last week. 
I haven't received my new, thicker patches yet, but I tried Hoppe's BP Lube on the .018 pillow ticking patches I had.
65 grains of Goex 2f.   
After plinking a little, I shot the first group that you can see above.  A cloverleaf at 40 yards.  I am pretty pleased with that! 
My process was wet patch, dry patch, 65 grains of 2f, wet-lubed patch by holding it with thumb over mouth of Hoppe's bottle, short starter ball and patch, then use range rod to seat. 
Still rams hard, but nothing as bad as last week. 
Found patches this week too.  They look pretty good where lube was, but the edges are shot and there are holes here and there that look like blow-by. 
Now the bad news.  On the last loading, I did process as usual.  I ended up with a lube-fouled wet mess of 65 grains of powder in my barrel that  wouldn't go off.  I pulled the ball, and spent quite a while cleaning the mud out. 
How do you guys that "wet-lube" keep your powder from getting fouled??
Going to JoAnns today to get some thicker material in denim. 
Thanks again for all of the advice.  Best wishes and God Bless,   Marc

[moleeyes36]

Marc,

Daryl and Taylor made a wet patch convert out of me a while back and I've never had a problem with wetting the powder charge when shooting at the range.  On my favorite .40 caliber target rifle I shoot a .395 ball with a .023 (compressed) cotton canvas patch and use 40 grains of 3fg Old Eynsford powder.  I take a stack of patches sufficient for the day's shooting that I've pre-cut and wet them with Mr. Flintlock lube.  Then with my thumb and index finger, I squeeze out most of the excess lube back into the bottle (I'm cheap).  I keep the wet patches in a tin or small Zip-loc bag as I use them.  I don't wipe at all between shots as you're doing.  After a sharp rap on the short starter I have no problem loading and never have any fouling problem.  I think Daryl and Taylor have gotten a lot of us loading that way now.

Mole Eyes

[smylee grouch]

Would it be possible that you might have had too much moisture in the bottom of the barrel from cleaning and then put your powder down into the wet before you sent the ball down?

[hanshi]

The patches should be wet but NOT dripping.  Also, if need be you can always use an op wad of some kind.  Sometimes they help and sometimes they don't necessarily help.  But IME they don't cause any problems.

[LH]

Any time you blow a patch in a rifle,  there is a good chance that you've got some leading in the bore too.  I've seen it quite a few times and it can make you pull out all your hair if you don't know its in there.  Next time you clean it,  flush it with hot soapy water til you have it squeaky clean and getting nothing but white patches out of the bore,  dry it good and then put two dry patches on your jag (if you can start them) you might have to tap them in,  and run them up and down the bore about 10 times without pulling it out the muzzle, and let the rod turn so it traces the riflings.  If there is any lead in there, you'll have some grey on the patch.  If you do,  then the fun begins.    

[Marcruger]

Many thanks to all who have replied. 

Mole Eyes - I think you are right.  My patches were wet at the range, and went right in the barrel.  Letting them sit and absorb, and squeezing out the excess is probably the key.  It may keep the edges lubed better and protect that part of the patch as well. 

LH - A great product that gets lead out with ease (be it BPCR, revolvers, etc) is Shiloh Creek Bore Solvent sold by Shiloh Sharps in Montana.  Great stuff.  We all know that turpentine lifts lead from metal, and you can smell it in the Shiloh bore solvent.  Somehow it gets under the lead a separates it from the steel.  Worth a try if you get leading.  Less damaging to the metal than abrasives. 

Hanshi - Good point.....NOT dripping.  Wish I'd thought of that earlier!   :-)

Smylee - Could well be.  I always put a dry patch after wet, but I could have left the bore a touch wet. 

I love the signature about young guys hanging out with old guys.  Indeed, the longer we live the more we know and the more experience and stories we accumulate.  I wrote articles about WWII fighter pilots.  Listening to their stories and wisdom was just fantastic.  Less than a year away from retirement at work, I look in the mirror and realize "Hey, I am one of the old guys!"  When did THAT happen? 

Thanks again guys.  Best wishes and God Bless,   Marc

[Natureboy]

  The linen I got at JoAnne's was 100% linen, but apparently too flimsy for shooting.  The denim I've been using since has been OK, and I've found all of the used patches in front of my station.  Some have small holes, which look like maybe they're burned or shot through, so I'll try the 10oz bull denim next.  As it is, the blue denim, lubed with Lehigh Valley and cut at the muzzle, allows for decent ramming without hammering, and I'm getting 3" groups at 50 yards.  I'd like to see them all making one big hole, but maybe that's my 70-year-old eyes.  I'm not 21 and shooting an M14 any more.

[Marcruger]

Hi Folks,  Just an update.  The combined wisdom here was correct and very helpful to me.  Many thanks!
Over the week I did some "similar triangles" computations, and adjusted my rear sight.  It was pretty close to right-on today at the range. 
I backed up from 38 to 45 yards.  I also changed to .020 patches (thicker), and revised to the suggested method of lubing the patches. 
I obtained a screw-on lid shallow container, and placed a stack of 20 patches inside.  I then dribbled Hoppes patch lube on top until they were all saturated.  Not soaking.  That worked like a charm.  No fouling of the powder, but no issues with the patches burning. 
Ram-rodding the loads today was not bad, certainly no harder than with .015 or .018, so all good.  Much better than when I was about to collapse trying to ram the loads before. 
Today I wiped between shots with a damp patch and then a dry one. 
So.....that means .495 roundball.  020 patch with Hoppes Lube.  65 grains 2f.  Rice barrel.  Chambers Late Ketland. Damp patch wipe between shots, followed by dry one.  Using a steel range rod.  Swiss Null priming powder. 
Last week the load .018 load gave me a cloverleaf at 38 yards, but the patches looked burnt in places.  This week I think the gun wanted to cloverleaf, but my glasses gave me a fit fogging up in the humidity.  I would say shot #3 nearby was my fault, not the gun. 
The patches all look consistent.  No burn-throughs.
I also did some plinking at 45 yards and hit each of the targets (tin can and a rubber ball target) offhand.  I felt great about that!  This may be the best offhand gun I have shot.  That Southern Classic barrel contributes to great balance. 
I think I am settled.  I am not sure I need to change anything at this point.  What do y'all say? 
Many thanks again, and God Bless,   Marc   

[Daryl]

Those patches are still too thin, in my honest opinion.  Those brown marks are either from blow-by in the grooves, or more probably due to too sharp a crown that is greatly stressing the fabric, causing a very minor weak spot that is getting flash- burning from the flame front.  The horrific fraying shows they are not good denim- certainly not denim bought for it's ounce weight.

 10 ounce denim will shoot V-well if not the best, in virtually 99% rifles out there - rifles that have decent bores and when used with balls measuring no more than .005" smaller than the bore size.

Please stop using all that $#@*.  As far as thin patches go, something in the order of .010" and .012" - measured when heavily compressed, is not even good for a snot rag, imho.  It is certainly not thick enough for a proper cleaning patch, let alone a patch expected to seal ALL of the powder flame and pressure behind the ball, not allowing gas cutting which destroys accuracy AND Consistency.

If you think your loose ball and patch combination is accurate, ask a successful match shooter why he doesn't use loose combinations?

[Marcruger]

Hi Daryl,

With all due respect, how is a .495 roundball with .020 patch in a .50 caliber Rice barrel a "loose ball and patch combination"? 

Best wishes,  Marc

[Daryl]

.490" + .020" + .020" = .530"

.500" bore, + .016" + .016" = .532"

Your combination does not make it to the bottom of the grooves, let alone give "some" valuable and necessary compression in the bottom of those grooves. The result of this, is burning caused by flame passing the patched ball in the bottom of the grooves. Too - the patch shown has a very weak weave-shown by the looseness of the fraying at the outter edges.

Here is an example of a load that actually seals - no blow-by at all - none.  It has already been shown in this forum many times.

.495" ball + .022" + .022" = .539 - giving a approximately .0035" compression of the patched ball in the bottom of the grooves.

My favourite load in my .45 GM bl. .445" ball + .0235" + .0235" = .492".  The groove diameter of that barrel is .474".  The compression in the bottom of each groove, is .009".  I also used that material in my .32 with the .320" ball. That's .367"(combination of ball and patch) - .336" (groove diameter) = .0155" compression in each and every groove. This load loads just as easily as the thinner, .022" and .019" patches. No cutting or burning guaranteed.

I use even tighter combinations in my .69 moose rifle with heavy loads. Heavier loads NEED tighter combinations than lighter loads, due to the increased pressure more easily getting past the patched ball.  We are still not understanding why ANY one needs to wipe due to fouling buildup. If the fouling builds up, the patches burn, scorch brown marks from the grooves or shrivel-fried up, the combination is quite simply, not tight enough.

the .32



the .45 & .58




 
These mentioned are loads that seal.

Also, my .69, with pure lead ball, uses a .684" ball and .030" (compressed) 12 ounce denim patch. I use the same patch with .677" (15 bore), WW ball. They both seal and load about the same.

.015" compression each groove with the pure lead ball.

.0115" compression each groove with the WW ball.

The WW ball is noticeably easier loading.

The .69's muzzle

[Marcruger]

Many thanks to all for the shared knowledge.
I got by JoAnn fabrics yesterday and bought cloth for heavier patching.
The warnings here were indeed correct - I only found four bolts out of 20 that were straight 100% cotton. All others had varying degrees of synthetic in them. Many bolts omit the fabric weight.
I bought some 11.5 oz blue denim, and two variations of "bull denim" that had no weight shown but were very close to the 11.5 but slightly thinner. I am guessing this is the 10 oz. It came in white and tan with slight variation in texture.
I washed it all last night, and plan to cut some sample patches tonight.
Thanks again, and best wishes, Marc

[Daryl]

Best wishes to you, Mark & good luck with further testing.
As noted, the 10 ounce denim (& the slightly thicker ticking we found), all 100% cotton will shoot well in all my guns - except the .69-which likes 12 ounce denim.