Question about cutting planks

[wvmtnman]

Yesterday at work a tree cutting company came in to remove a large cherry tree.  After a short conversation, they gave me two logs.  One is about 24 inches in diameter and 6.5 feet long and the other is about 21 and 6 feet long.  (They even loaded it into my trailer and the owner is interested in buying a rifle!)  Anyway, it is now at a saw yard and I am supposed to go there tomorrow night after hours and have it cut.  I want  a couple planks for fowlers, so I need them three inches wide but the others I want for southern mountain rifles.  How thick should I cut them?  -I did not know how much they would shrink in thickness, if any. 
I check the archives and have read all there is on the subject but any other additional information would be helpful.  Anyone else ever do this before?  I an sure it will be a lot of work and trouble but I hated to see that log cut up for fire wood.
                                                            Thanks, Brian

[Dennis Glazener]

Brian,
I cut my maple and walnut 2.5 inches and its fine for my mountain rifles. My patterns have about 1/4" of cast off and cheek rest. When dry I end up with over 2 1/4 thickness. One thing I would do is cut them at least a foot longer than you think you will need them. Maybe more. Be sure to paint the ends good. I like Kilz (sp) sealer the best but a decent latex seems to work well. I made the mistake of using oil based once and it peeled off!

Be sure to use plenty of "stickers" and make sure they are all the same thickness. Doesn't hurt to have plenty of weight on them which seems to stop the twisting, too some degree anyway.

Dennis

[Acer Saccharum]

This is assuming you will cut 3" planks.
In this image, you will certainly get two good stocks out of plank A
Planks B maybe two stocks wide, especially if you nest the blanks on each other. The downside of this style of cut, for B, is that the plank may tend to cup a bit, but in the end, you are not making table tops, just old flint guns. The extra small planks will cup like mad.


This style of cutting will yield the best grain structure for stocks, but your log has to be big enough. Planks 1 are right on the quarter; planks 2 may or may not be big enough to get stocks out of. So you might get only four stocks out of a smaller log, or eight if the bad boy is big enough. The extra ends can be cut into small lumber for projects, furniture, etc.


Whatever you do, paint the ends of the logs as soon as you can, as cherry checks like a hockey player( a joke only the Canadians will get). Sticker the planks with DRY stickers, preferrably pine. Wet stickers will cause mould stain or fungus. Oak stickers can cause a tannic acid stain.

You will have to consider the logs carefully to see how they layout works, how you might get the best yield.

[northmn]

Acer pretty much has it laid out.  You use the center of the tree for the barrel channel and the outer for the toe and hope you can get the grain going more straight through the wrist.  Usually the stump has the best firgure (burl) which is best for the buttstock.  Do some planning as 3" is a pretty thick stock and as fowlers do not have cheek pieces and about a 2" wide butt plate you may get by with using a little thinner blank.  By thinning it out you may be able to salvage a couple of blanks from each side.  Southern mountain rifles could likely go to a 2" wide blank.  A fowler takes a deep blank with their 5"+ deep buttplates.

DP

[Dennis Glazener]

I would be very skittish about having the center of the log going through a stock blank especially with cherry and walnut! I guess having it fall into the barrel channel might be ok but the center does not run straight. On walnut there is a tiny hole through the center and on one of my pieces of cherry I had a similar thing happen on part of the it and I had to make the stock much shorter than I expected due to dodge the center of the log.
Dennis
   

[Osprey]

Acer, of all the times tree cutting questions have come up that is the best pic/description I've seen yet.  I believe I finally understand what everyone's been trying to describe.  Thanks!  

[AMartin]

I'd just slice 2-3/4" -3" thick slabs , not squaring the log , just slab it off ...... you'll get the best yield and some quartered and some slab sawn ......
I still prefer to build a flinter with a slab sawn stock ...... stronger through the wrist .... !!
Unless it's stump ....

Allen

[David Veith]

I agree with Dennis I like to cut so that the Heart wood would be on the very out side wood and go from there.
David Veith

[wvmtnman]

Also, I forgot to mention earlier, one lo is curved down a little on one end and slightly curved down, in the same direction, on the other end.  I guess the best way to slab it would be to lay it so that the curved ends are running parallel to the ground? 
                                                                                   Brian

[dickert54cal]

Perfect timing ----I was wonder the same thing--I had two very large Black Walnut trees go down and started to cut them up for fire wood! UGGGGHHHHHHH-----Im going to check to see what I have left then there are a good many big ones still standing....HMMMM

[wvmtnman]

One more question, should I cut the boards into stock blanks now?  Or leave them as planks to let them dry?
                                                                  Brian

[Lucky R A]

     I agree with Allen on slab sawing them for the best yield and best lay out of your stocks.   We rarely get large enough trees to do really good quarter sawn blanks.   Leave the wood as a large plank/flich until thoroughly dry before you cut it into blanks.  In the next 4 years until it is ready to use, things will happen.  It may check despite your best efforts.  It may warp due to internal stresses etc.   Once it is dry lay out your stock pattern to the best advantage and you will have less loss.   

[northmn]

I would be very skittish about having the center of the log going through a stock blank especially with cherry and walnut! I guess having it fall into the barrel channel might be ok but the center does not run straight. On walnut there is a tiny hole through the center and on one of my pieces of cherry I had a similar thing happen on part of the it and I had to make the stock much shorter than I expected due to dodge the center of the log.
Dennis
   

Let me rephrase.  Use the part that faces the center as the barrel channel.  As Acer's diagrams show you out you cut out the very center portion.  On a smaller tree this method also permits using the thicker part or the stump part for the butt stock as well as the most figured.  On a quarter sawed plank you will have a part that faces the center and one that faces the outer or sapwood, which should be cut off for a stock blank (ideally).  When I cut out a stock blank I figure I can get 2 blanks from a cut as I have to use smaller trees. I get one blank from each side of the split log.  If lucky one may get 3 from a side with 2 for slimmer guns.    A 24 inch log is not that big after splitting up the middle you get a 12 inch depth at most.  Cutting out the center as Acer's diagram show and cutting off the sap wood will leave about enough depth for one deep blank.  You need to paint the ends,  I used paint but some use a mixture of carpenters glue and water.  I do not care how you dry them you may get a couple of pistol blanks out of the bunch.  I made a gun from tree to finished in about 6 months, but I admit I may have rushed the process.  Some of the older wood workers will say that cannot be done but they obviously have not heard of new fangled things called kilns and hot boxes.  Air dried wood is not all that great unless you live in an ideal climate as wood only dries to the ambient humidity.  A commercial stock balnk is dried to under 10%, TOW claims 7% to prevent warpage in your project.

DP

[Acer Saccharum]

Do I cut stock blanks now, or leave it in the plank to dry?

Well, now, this is something I can only go with my gut feeling, but thisis what I do:

I like to saw as in the first illustration, just like AM  says, and leave the log in the round.
Now you have great wide thick planks. Sticker these up, out of the wind, out of the sun, in a cool ventilated place(Repeat..NOT windy). You want the wood to dry SLOWLY. Make sure the ends are painted with several coats of old latex paint, titebond glue, or special wood endgrain sealer.

Let these dry for a year or more before cutting into blanks. Cut the blanks plenty oversized. I stack and sticker the blanks, and clamp them together with threaded rods to keep them from twisting while they dry. A piece of channel top and bottom to act as clamp bars. I put three to four of these clamp assemblies per stack of blanks. Tighten the nuts as the wood dries. Paint any endgrain that appears when you cut the butt end of the stocks. I use clear sanding sealer for that, so you can still see the grain. With a three foot long threaded rod, I get about six or eight blanks all clamped together. Steel should not contact the wood, as it will stain.

Tom

[northmn]

Super slow air drying of wood is absolutely unncessary and stock blank suppliers would be broke if they did so.  After about the first 2 weeks of air drying you will see things starting to crack that are going to crack.  Wood will start checking after a day or two after being cut in the but ends which is why you need to paint them.  Once the wood quits bleeding or stays dry on the surface after about 2-3 weeks of air drying depending, you can speed up the process.  The old one year to an inch is mostly BS.  In Arizona one year to a 3 inch plank may get it dryer than three years in Minnesota.  In Minnesota air drying will reach about 14%.  Bowyers have noted this difference in location in the Traditional Bowyers Bible.  In the SW staves get too dry and bows break, in my area they do not dry enough and take set unless put in a hot box.  Some boards will never make a gunstock and some will, air drying will not guarantee that all will.  In addition depending on where you live a hot box may make a better stock as it can dry out the wood more.

DP 

[Acer Saccharum]

A friend of mine turns bowls, and he puts the wood in a microwave, covered in plastic. He says you should see the water come out!

Now, if that don't stress the wood, I don't what will!

Tom

[northmn]

I am getting a little stir crazy as its been a long winter and I have to go out and fire up the Kabota again to move more of tht beautiful white s--- from a March blizzard.  In some ways I think that an intact piece of wood tht has been "stressed" may be more comfortable for building a rifle, chair, table whatever than one that has not.  I would take an air dried piece of wood and place it in the hot box before building a rifle with it as a matter of precaution.  When I built my last project it was put in the box while being built to keep it at a more stable level.  Also I admit I rushed it a little.  Its been hanging up stairs the whole winter and nothing has shrunk or expanded.  It has needed another coat of oil, which is common for my new builds.  Another factor in trees to planks is the time of season they are cut.  I like to cut maple and birch in the dead of winter.  When we get out predicted warm spell next week the maple sap should start running, maple sugar time.  It takes a little longer to dry it than when cut in the middle of winter.  Birch will make a sugar similar to maple only you have to boil more sap to get the same amount.  The woods are very similar in working.  I have seen some curl in birch firewood that has inspired me to cut birch for stocks as my maple supply is very limited in tree size.  I wish aspen were harder.

DP 

[Tony Clark]

Do I cut stock blanks now, or leave it in the plank to dry?

Well, now, this is something I can only go with my gut feeling, but this is what I do:

Acer, One can learn a lot from talking to people who have cut and sold stocks for many years, and I have done so every opportunity that I have been able. Without exception, I have found that the consensus is to immediately bandsaw the stocks from the planks upon sawing, or in other words, to take the material down to as close to usable size once it has been reduced from log form and further drying has begun. This is particularly important with figured wood or a large plank that my have defects or other irregularities. The reason for this is simple, and one that should be followed not only for stocks, but when producing material for any type of project. When the piece is taken down to as close to finished size as possible the likelihood of splitting or warping is greatly reduced because you are removing material that may potentially cause the blank to do so. 

Also, I feel I should mention a few words about the drying of wood for projects such as gunstocks and other projects where stability and hardness is a desirable or necessary requirement. The practices which many of the large suppliers of gunstocks follow so that they may be profitable does not necessarily dictate what is best for the person who is in need of the highest quality stocks possible. I know of at least one major supplier who is quite adamant about wood not needing any further treatment other than kiln drying to produce a piece of wood that is immediately ready for any intended use, even a highly carved gun of the highest quality. What I have found, and again, what I would have to say is the consensus of most of the builders I personally know that produce things like highly carved guns of the finest quality, is that even if a blank is initially kiln dried ample time should be given to air drying the piece. In fact I believe it would be fair to say that the longer a piece is left to air dry the better. In other words, all things being equal, the piece of wood that is older is the more valuable piece, more stable, and harder. This is not because the wood is any dryer, most wood left to air dry in suitable conditions will rather rapidly loose the vast majority of its water in generally a very short time like a month or so, and will finally come down to its final moisture content in balance with its surroundings within several years. I find that the 1 year per 1" of thickness and 1 more year for the board to be a suitable general guideline for most people (notwithstanding the fact that in extreme conditions the drying may occur more quickly or slowly, that is why it is a guideline). What does occur in addition to drying is what can be called "seasoning". This can be described as what begins to occur to a piece of wood after it has come down to a moisture content in balance with its surroundings. Every further seasonal cycle that the piece of wood goes through causes it to become more "seasoned". It will become harder and it will become more stable. I believe that this is because the remaining sap that is left in the woods cells slowly crystalizes further, and as the seasonal cycle causes the wood to expand and contract, however slightly, when it contracts once again, the cells become however slightly smaller and more dense. Evidence can be seen for this process by simply looking at a very old piece of wood, or a old gun stock for example. What has happened? It has of course shrunk and the wood has become harder. With every seasonal cycle a piece of wood is allowed to go through more seasoning will occur. I believe this seasoning occurs more rapidly at first and then more slowly as time goes on, but nevertheless continues to happen as time goes on. Can a person cut a tree into lumber and speed up drying so that it can be used in a short time if required? Sure. Is this desirable? Well, I guess it would depend on what was to be the nature of the object being produced, I suppose a person could stock agun from a green tree if it wasn't to important to them or just a simple piece, but for any type of high quality gun particularly if it is to be carved my opinion is no this is not at all desirable. What is desirable is to give the wood a chance to reach its maximum workability by allowing it to season. Older wood is better wood. Personally I always have a number of blanks allowing me to always have amply dried and relatively well seasoned blanks available for use. The oldest and best of my wood I treasure and save for very special projects which require a special piece of wood. Regards, TC

[Acer Saccharum]

Awesome info, Tony. Makes perfect sense about a smaller piece handling the stress better. I'm now gonna get my fat butt out and cut my planks into blanks! My process my have come from laziness. Those planks are about 150 lbs each, and I don't relish humping them around much. Once they are in blank form, they will be a lot easier to handle!

Thanks again. I will change my strategy.

[T*O*F]

Another factor in trees to planks is the time of season they are cut.  I like to cut maple and birch in the dead of winter.  When we get out predicted warm spell next week the maple sap should start running, maple sugar time.  It takes a little longer to dry it than when cut in the middle of winter.

Like you, I had always assumed this to be true.  However, an experienced lumberman employed by Weyerhauser wrote a paper for me several years ago which was to be published on my website as a FAQ.  He said the optimal time to cut a tree for home drying was during its prime growing season when fully leaved.  After dropping the tree, it should be left intact on the ground for at least 6 months before any branches are trimmed and the log is sawn.  Since the tree is fully leaved, it doesn't know it has been cut down, it continues to draw nutrients (sap) from the log until it is all exhausted, at which time the leaves begin to wither and die.  This extracts maximum moisture from the log before it is sawn.

[Eric Krewson]

A fellow in Ga that cuts an astounding amount of wood for bows did a test on cutting a tree, removing the log opposed to cutting the tree in the summer and leaving it in place until the leaves shrivled up and dried. He found the leaves wicked 40% of the moisture out of the trunk opposed to a trunk that was removed immediately from the tree.

[T*O*F]

Awesome info, Tony. Makes perfect sense about a smaller piece handling the stress better.

Acer,of
I'm surprised that so few among this learned group are aware of this fact.  Perhaps it is because so much of the information learned on message boards is a result of passing on one's opinion, instead of reading the literature.  This method of drying has been written in numerous publications since the turn of the last century.  I believe it was John Bivins who further said that the blanks should have a screw eye installed in the end of the blank which is then suspended from a wire in the top of the barn or the attic of the workshop until dry.

During this time, the blank will warp right or left if slab sawn, or up and down if quarter sawn.  This is one reason why the quarter sawn blank is preferable.  More wood must be removed from a slab sawn blank to true it before commencing work.

[northmn]

Letting the leaves draw the moisture out of a tree is an old firewood trick, in that you can wait for the leaves to die before cutting up part of the tree.  I know from a lot of experience that it is much quicker to get dry fire wood if you cut up the larger base and split it.  Letting the leaves wick out the moisture for the upper part then works quicker.  Another trick is to slit the bark lengthwise on smaller pieces.  I cut and burn a lot of firewood, about 10-11 4X4X8 cords a year. Wood cut in the spring is not the prime growing season.  that particular gentleman was talking about the summer.  Maple sap runs for a couple of weeks and then lets off.   Some of the spring cut wood will almost splatter you when hit with a splitting maul.   Part of the resistance to using quick dry methods came or comes from the use of too hot of temperatures in kilns of over 170 degrees.  One used to see that in tool handles where they would break and the cell structure would look almost powdery.  Wood suppliers have learned a lot through the years.  I guess its up to the individual, but I like to work with wood properly dried to a stable level, which air drying will not do in my area.  I also like to be able to work with the wood before I am too feeble to lift a chisel.  The method I use was recommended by bowyers and can be used to bring wood down to a level too brittle for bows.  In the Antique section they mentioned how rifle wood has shrunk over the years away from the inlays.  That is partially due to totally air dried wood as is the common splitting I have seen on old shotguns I have fixed up.  You can by judicious use of applied heat dry wood within 4 to six months and have it at 10% or less and ready to make a gunstock (10% is good for bows less for stocks).  Part of the process would be to cut it to blank shape.  I have done so for both bows and gunstocks.  I have also been formally trained in this area with a degree in Industrial Arts, with classes in wood technology, as well as reading the literature.

DP

[wvmtnman]

Well, thanks to all who helped me out.  The planks are now cut up and stacked in my shop.  So far, none have checked.  I painted the ends within an hour or so of slabing them up.  If all goes well, I will probably cut the planks into oversized blanks towards the end of April.  However, the bark is still on the slabs.  Is it OK to leave the bark on? 
                                                                   Thanks,  Brian

[Tony Clark]

I guess its up to the individual, but I like to work with wood properly dried to a stable level, which air drying will not do in my area.   

I have also been formally trained in this area with a degree in Industrial Arts, with classes in wood technology, as well as reading the literature.

DP

Your not able to properly air dry wood in your area? Really? That seems odd. Very odd. I live not to far from you and it dries fine here. This is because for most of the year the relative humidity is so very (very) low. In the winter months I find myself continually having to humidify my shop (I can put two gallons of water in the air every day just to keep it 25%-30%) and home just to keep the things from drying out to much. With all the below zero weather we have had here this past January outside R.H. rarely got above 20% and was as low as 14% when the winds & freezing temps were sweeping down from directly north.  One thing I worry about in particular is my acoustic guitar which has highly flamed curly maple back and sides. I pay very close attention to make certain it gets enough moisture and keep it far away from any heat source. This is because it is a relatively newly made instrument, as most luthiers will tell you, once it gets a few years of "seasoning" the chance of wood movement and cracking is greatly reduced.  I find myself having to pay careful attention to any type of valuable wood that I have air drying outside so as to keep it from drying out to quickly. The longer a piece of wood is allowed to acclimate with its environment and is allowed to "season" the less likelihood that these seasonal changes in humidity and temperature will effect it.  Superior stability in a piece of wood is what comes from proper seasoning and air drying, and can't be achieved or rushed by baking it in an oven for a short time. That is my opinion, and I apologize for disagreeing with you. I just think it is fair for other folks that may be reading this forum to have another opinion.


Brian, don't worry about the bark. If the "planks" you have made have any type of Knots or irregularities I would not wait to long before cutting out your blanks. And if the pieces you have that contain the heart or pith of the tree look like they may contain a decent blank, do those right off and cut the heart out. They will crack to the heart very soon just because wood shrinks radially.  Regards, TC