Long range (200 - 300yd) roundball shooting?

[LH]

I know from searching topics that we have a wealth of experience here in this area, and I'm curious what yall think about this fellows' theory:
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/wosika.htm

[SCLoyalist]

I quit reading after the 2nd paragraph where he says he got 15 to 20 foot wide 'patterns' at 200 yards.    The NMLRA metallic silhouette target, to be shot with patched roundball, at 200 yards is a standing bear, maybe 3 feet tall, 18" wide.   Those get knocked down pretty regularly.   Never tried 300 yards, but suspect the limitations would be capability of the sights more than the ballistics of the ball. 

The biggest problems I see with 200+ yard shots are  (1) accurately estimating the range so as to know where to hold or what sight picture to use,  (2)  being able to have had some experience or practice shooting at those distances. 

Just got through reading a highly fictional novel , "Tim Murphy, Rifleman" written by a former Army (or maybe Marine, I forget) sniper.  In his rendition of Murphy's kill shot at Saratoga on General Fraser,  Murphy is shooting off a rest, and Murphy takes two or three shots with a friend trying to spot the misses  for him so he can refine his hold and aiming point.

[Molly]

Well, I only read the question and then looked at the lengthy text which followed and decided I already had a theory.  And my theory is that while there are many great shooters now and probably then as well, most of the claims of exceptional accuracy is overblown hype.  Beyond distance and elevation, take a look at what a 5 MPH cross wind does to any round ball.  

[EC121]

A 5mph wind is moving the air mass at 7.3fps.  The ball in that mass is also moving at 7.3fps. assuming the wind is 90deg. to the flight of the ball.   Ball flight time to the target X 7.3 should give the approximate amount of sideways deflection.   At a long distance with an uncorrected sight picture that is called a miss.   

[LH]

his explanation of what happens to a roundball that is "over stabilized" is what I found entertaining. 

[Frizzen]

I wonder how he would explain my 1st five shots at 100 yds with my little 32 pistol with a 6 inch barrel
only shooting 15 grains of powder ? The 10 ring is 3 inches dia. I shot this at Friendship in June
of this year. There was wind coming from the left at anywhere from 5-10 mph.  The velocity at 100 yds
could not have been over 700 fps. I think he doesn't know of what he speaks.

[LH]

Well Phil,  this guy says when you have your ball in the right velocity range for your particular twist rate,  the accuracy will be there at all ranges.  According to him though, if you overspin the ball,  at some distance past 100yds,  it will start wobbling out of control which will cause it to flip over backwards tumbling like a knuckle ball and all accuracy is lost.     Its not easy to follow his explanation of how all that works but all my intuition for ballistics and the belief that I have based on my limited knowledge of external ballistics is that its not possible for a ball to do what he says it can do.

[Molly]

Frizzen:  That would be some dandy shootin' for sure!  So where was your point of aim when that target was shot.

I shot a 54 cal smooth bore pistol last week.  No sights, of course.  Target set at about 15 yards.  Missed the entire thing!  How is that possible?

[Molly]

EC121:  Interesting way to calculate drift.  So by that formula a ball at 1400 ft/sec would reach the target at 100 yards  in .2142 seconds and if I follow your approach, .2142 x 7.3 = 1.56.  But that would give you the drift in FEET.  So in inches that would be 18.72 inches.

This cannot be correct.

I cannot give you a formula but in reading a chart a 32 cal shot at 100 yards with a velocity of 1400 ft/sec in a 5 mph cross wind will have a drift of  about 8 inches.  I recently shot this combination and found the charts info pretty accurate.

It looks to me your formula does not consider the physics of ball weight or decreasing velocity but I know little about ballistics.

[Hungry Horse]

 If you want to shoot out to 300 yards with a muzzleloader, you need to ditch the pencil, and the calculator, and start shooting. When I first got into muzzleloading, I shot nearly every day. I wore a CVA Mountain Rifle out in a little over three years.
  I shot in a long gong match at Red Bluff Calif. that was an elimination shoot that started pretty close, and then all competitors that hit the 18" gone stepped back ten yards. We ran out of range at 300 yards, and the four of us that we're left, were asked to make the next shot standing on one foot. I shot second, and observed the number one shooter actually placing his left foot on his right. He hit the gong doing this, and so did I. The other two shooters missed. They then asked us to reduce our charges to 70 grains. I shot first, and missed. The other guy hit the bottom edge of the gong.
 I don't doubt the accounts of these old boys one bit. They probably couldn't run a pencil, but they sure could run their rifles.
          Hungry Horse

[Bob Roller]

If you want to shoot out to 300 yards with a muzzleloader, you need to ditch the pencil, and the calculator, and start shooting. When I first got into muzzleloading, I shot nearly every day. I wore a CVA Mountain Rifle out in a little over three years.
  I shot in a long gong match at Red Bluff Calif. that was an elimination shoot that started pretty close, and then all competitors that hit the 18" gone stepped back ten yards. We ran out of range at 300 yards, and the four of us that we're left, were asked to make the next shot standing on one foot. I shot second, and observed the number one shooter actually placing his left foot on his right. He hit the gong doing this, and so did I. The other two shooters missed. They then asked us to reduce our charges to 70 grains. I shot first, and missed. The other guy hit the bottom edge of the gong.
 I don't doubt the accounts of these old boys one bit. They probably couldn't run a pencil, but they sure could run their rifles.

HH,
We had a neighbor,Forest Mitchell that told me he shot in pistol matches at a gong at 200 and 300 yards in Kentucky and he used a Triple lock S&W 44 Special that he owned until he died in 1979.
The prizes were turkeys at these long pistol shoots.I have broken dinner plates with my S&W Model 27 in years past at 300 yards. It can be done.

Bob Roller
          Hungry Horse

[Joe S.]

Seems to be human nature to make more out of something than it is.Everybody wants to sound important,be the smartest man in the room,might as well make shooting round balls into rocket science.Like hungry horse said get to the range.Your shooting iron hits well at fifty to a hundred yards should do the same at two to three hundred. May have to tinker abit with loads but should still shoot true if your aims true.The old eyes and iron sights will be the problem.Consistent loads the ball should fly and drop pretty much the same and as long as your winds aren't blowing crazy shouldn't take long to hit down field.Practice makes perfect is not just for your golf game.My pop built a flint kit cant remember what but it went thru a bunch of folks unbuilt till he bought it and built it.Was a wee bit younger then and my eyes still where sharp, I was cutting holes at a hundred yards with it.Never would have thought it with a flintlock.Those great shots of yesteryear probably are both great shots and a little added yardage to make em even greater.

[wattlebuster]

My hat is off to those with eyes good enough to shoot at a target that far. My 53 yr old eyes cant see good enough to even attempt a 200 yrd shot let alone 300. My flintball shooting has to be close as in 50 or a tad more close then I might could compete. Guess I cant an never could run with the big boys

[Marcruger]

Phil, in your case it is the skill of the super shooter making up for the lack of accuracy of the arm.  You go man!   :-) 

Bob, I hear you on handguns at long range.  I hosted a friend at our range, helping him sight in his rifle at 100 yards.  He lamented that we were on the wrong range for him to shoot his snubbie Model 36 S&W .38 special.  I said go ahead and shoot it at 100 yards.  He laughed and said the round wouldn't carry that far.  I had him take a Bojangles Styrofoam cup would to the 100 yard line. The cup was BRIGHT yellow, which really helped.  I connected two out of five times, and wasn't too far off with the others.  He became a believer.  Handguns will shoot if we let our brain catch up.

Best wishes,   Marc

[PPatch]

Frizzen:  That would be some dandy shootin' for sure!  So where was your point of aim when that target was shot.

I shot a 54 cal smooth bore pistol last week.  No sights, of course.  Target set at about 15 yards.  Missed the entire thing!  How is that possible?

Easy, you weren't standing close enough!    In any case you might consider putting a bayonet on it.

dave

[Tony N]

I wonder how he would explain my 1st five shots at 100 yds with my little 32 pistol with a 6 inch barrel
only shooting 15 grains of powder ? The 10 ring is 3 inches dia. I shot this at Friendship in June
of this year. There was wind coming from the left at anywhere from 5-10 mph.  The velocity at 100 yds
could not have been over 700 fps. I think he doesn't know of what he speaks.

Very nice target!!  I would have hard time doing that at 50yds!!

~Tony

[Molly]

I'll bet some of you would object to the use of a smart phone "app" as a shooting aid!

[WadePatton]

Not me.  Because, once (or twice) inspired by tales told by Elmer Keith, I've done some "way too far" shooting for caliber/weapon.  And there's no app that has all the answers.  If one was written it would have to include inputs for so many variables plus an accurate MV...and it still won't hold the gun for you and conditions constantly change.

There's simply NO substitute for the shooting.  Since we logged a few trees I have some really good hillside shots to set up. Won't be super long but quite long enough, especially for short arms. 

Now back to my bench.

[bob in the woods]

We used to hold 200 yd target matches on a regular basis.  Most common cal. was .54
The scores would surprise those who don't usually shoot at that distance. I have a steel "ram" set out at 300 yds. here on my property, and I can hit it more often than not .  Most don't have the opportunity to shoot their muzzleloaders at these distances which is absolutely necessary if you want results.

[Tony N]

I have 150yd steel gong at my farm and I agree it takes practice, practice, practice. But once you know the aiming point, it's just a mater of holding steady.

~Tony

[bob in the woods]

Exactly 

[Daryl]

With the gongs set at known distances, consistent hits can be made - and quite easily.  My current hunting rifle has sights from 100 to 200METERS with heavy loads. The accuracy is all that is needed to hit moose in the ribs - every shot with a rest at the 200yard range.
 
The power/velocity generated by the 165gr. 2f charge is sufficient for the 480gr. pure lead or 466gr. WW round ball to do it's 'stuff' - out to that range.

However, since moose can easily be called in for a 50 to 100yard shot (or stalked that closely), the 200 leaf has never been raised for them. I prefer to "stagger" them at close range - and it does.
 
The 200 yard/meter has been raised only for plinking to that range. I use a laser range finder so I know what the range is BEFORE the shot & use the appropriate leaf.  I also know how to hold for a 300 meter shot, as I used to have a leaf for that range too - with the current 200yard wide V, I hold level with the top 'wings', bead in the centre of the gong and it gets rung.

We used to have a 300 meter gong (about 328yard) set up for your rendezvous here, back in the 80's.  My hunting rifle has been fired at that gong by at least 4 other club members - it never missed.  None of them wanted to shoot it again.  I don't know why -  it is very accurate to that range. I even placed middle of the pack in a BP Ctg. event at Helfely Creek back in about 2008, with it. They only shot to 250yards & my best shooting was at 175 and 250. Had I not screwed up on the chickens at 100yards (yeah- dumb), I might have been in the running for prizes.

Do not discount the larger calibers for long range accuracy.  I was at the range when Taylor shot a 2 1/2", 5 shot group at 200yards with his open sighted .62 Hawken. He was also there when I did likewise with my .69 - it was the same day. Prior to that, my best group was 6 shots into 3 1/2" high X 1 1/4" wide group. He was also there that day as well.  We were practicing for the 200yard ALR match that only Taylor and I joined George in entering.

My .69 won that event - those years ago, which prompted Taylor to build the Hawken.  We've not shot the even since - ?
 Even though my combined position group was much larger than I wanted, every one of those shots, 5 sitting and 5 offhand would have been through the lungs of a moose at that range.

It does kick a bit. But the down-range rewards make a bit of recoil worth it - besides you do not feel it when shooting at game. Taylor's 200 yard load in the .62, is 127/8gr. 2F. Any more than that & it gets rough on the shoulder/arm joint with the rounded, narrow Hawken butt plate.

[WadePatton]

I have 150yd steel gong at my farm and I agree it takes practice, practice, practice. But once you know the aiming point, it's just a mater of holding steady.

~Tony

Until the breeze shifts. 

and that's what keeps it interesting.

[Tony N]

Agreed!!

~Tony

[bob in the woods]

My .62 cal Edward Marshall [ Chambers Kit ]  likes 120 gr FFg  with it's .610 ball 
It's my official moose rifle.  Anything out to 200 yards is in a lot of trouble