Author Topic: Case hardening and case coloring  (Read 27958 times)

Offline flatsguide

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Case hardening and case coloring
« on: September 13, 2015, 06:20:10 AM »
As some of you folks know, I'm building A Jim Chambers English sporting rifle. I would like to know what parts were most likely to have been case hardened and/or case colored. Years ago I saw some English guns that the breech tang was case colored. On the rifle that I am building the breech tang is integral to the breech plug. If I case color that part would it be too brittle and would I have to draw it back after quenching?
I do not know the alloy but it was fitted to the Rice bbl. That will not be hard to find out though. 
Really interest in your thoughts, ideas or advice.
Thanks, Richard

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2015, 06:56:07 AM »
 I know that all the English locks were hardened. Some had to be color hardened even if was an accident.  If you case harden the breach plug and tang I would  temper the threads back to at least 625 ° F.
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Offline David Rase

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2015, 07:13:38 AM »
Richard,
I always draw back any parts that I case color harden.  Normally I draw the hardened parts at 400 degrees for 1 hour.  The drawing process does two things for me.  First is tempers the parts and second it helps make the colors pop and become much more bright and vivid.

You should not have any problems with color hardening the breech.  When I case color harden a breech plug I draw the temper and then apply additional temper to about 600 degrees to the threads with a propane flame.  I have had no issues.
David     

Offline flatsguide

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2015, 03:31:11 PM »
Jerry, David, Thanks for info. I am very tempted to get a furnace and do this myself. Do you know if the trigger guard and ramrod pipes were case colored also on Hi end English guns?
Thanks much, Richard

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2015, 03:41:02 PM »
anybody case harden thimbles, patch boxes ect.Not sure how these parts would fare during the quench.Be to brittle or warp even when supported.I was thinking of doing this to try and get all the metal to match in color,tang,butt,lock,ect.Would doing the normal case hardening procedure with the lock,butt and tang and then do the thimbles and patch box separately without the quench to just get the color without the risk be an option?I was going to start a thread on this when I was to that point but seeing we are on the subject.Not really trying for the really brilliant colors but more grays that would be more the norm for early hawken rifles,Thanks,Joe

Offline smart dog

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2015, 04:00:29 PM »
Hi Flatsguide,
According to Keith Neal, the first gunmaker in England to intentionally produce case colors or preserve those that happened by chance, was William Bailes in the late 1760s.  Case colors do not appear to be common on English guns until late in the 18th century.  Consequently, case colors probably are not appropriate for the period of gun Chamber's rifle represents if you want to be HC.  Simple case hardening without producing colors was of course common and was a very ancient process for hardening the surfaces of iron parts.  It probably needs saying first, that case hardening any parts of a Chambers lock probably voids the warrantee.  Regardless, I case harden all of my lock plates and flintcocks.  That prevents the flintcock from peening the bolster of the lock plate.  I also case harden the frizzen. I do that because I anneal the frizzen, which makes it much easier to clean up and polish (and engrave if desired). Then I case harden it.  Although I cannot explain why, my case hardened frizzens simply spark better than those hardened by any of the manufacturers.  I also case harden the hook and tang breech and any other steel or iron parts that are likely to wear or be exposed to rust. A polished hardened surface is quite rust resistant.  The exceptions are the trigger guard and butt plate.  I am concerned about warping and misshaping them during hardening.  Unless I can block them with thicker steel, I avoid hardening them.

dave       
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2015, 05:33:24 PM »
Quote
You should not have any problems with color hardening the breech.
You can also screw a nut on to the threads.  The large mass of the nut slows the cooling when you quench it, eliminating the need to temper.
Dave Kanger

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Offline smart dog

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2015, 05:50:54 PM »
Quote
You should not have any problems with color hardening the breech.
You can also screw a nut on to the threads.  The large mass of the nut slows the cooling when you quench it, eliminating the need to temper.


What a great idea, thanks.

dave
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Offline flatsguide

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2015, 08:32:39 PM »
Dave, please thank Smart Dog for me for his words of wisdom. TOF, I agree, great advice...Thanks!
Richard

Offline smart dog

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2015, 10:02:53 PM »
Dave, please thank Smart Dog for me for his words of wisdom.

Will do Richard, as soon as she finishes licking her, ah, you know where.

dave
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2015, 12:46:00 AM »
 I have never seen a English gun of the period you are building that had iron furniture. All the ones I have seen are either Brass or Silver. I have built late model English sporting era 1815 or later rifles with steel furniture. If you case harden a butt plate after fitting it will not fit after hardening. From my experience if you try to bend a case hardened part it has a very good chance of breaking especially if it is thin. I know. some military rifles may have had iron furniture.
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Offline Joe S.

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2015, 12:57:30 AM »
Just a thought,would case hardening all the parts before finishing the stock then make sense?You could then in theory make adjustments to the stock if necessary. If proper precautions are taken with parts to insure them from warping the slight changes should be able to be fixed,IMHO.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2015, 02:51:36 AM »
 You can limit warping by blocking a part with steel supports. That is time consuming and requires a lot of fabricating. You have to invent ways to attach the blocking to the part. Even then some parts will still warp some. I have done it but I can't say it was worth it unless you think you have a big profit potential. Ordinary guns are just not worth the effort and loss of time. 
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2015, 03:06:55 AM »
Hi Joe,
In a word, no.  You often have to bend and reshape trigger guards as you finish a gun to adjust the profile as you go along.  For example, trigger guards should be one of the last hardware you inlet so that you can shape the stock to pleasing lines and then adapt the guard to those lines.  It is almost impossible to shape the guard first and fit the stock to it.  Chances are it will look very bad.

dave
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Offline Joe S.

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2015, 03:32:16 AM »
true enough but was thinking more about almost having things as close to the finish as possible.Having in my case the trigger plate bent to shape and trigger guard bent to fit it.I was thinking more of the butt plate lock,tang.I do think with proper blocking the movement should be minimal. The lines of the rifle in these areas being all but done.Just throwing it out there for discussion, I'm not sold on trying it myself till I take a spare butt or tang and block it and do a test run to see how much it can change shape.Thanks for the info Dave

Offline flatsguide

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2015, 04:24:24 AM »
Jerry, thanks for the bit of info regarding the iron furniture. I did not know that. When I bought the kit from Jim I wanted to buy the silver furniture until he told me the price for that would be over $2,000 bucks. I agree, tooling up to hold just a few parts is not worth it.

Smart Dog, thanks for the insight relating to the trigger guard being the last to inlet. I have the toe to trigger plate line real close to the finished line on the stock and transferred that line to the trigger guard that is still being massaged with file and stone. Getting up the cojone's to start filing the rollover on the bow. Oh! Hi Dave.
Now that I am not period correct, that will free me up to be a bit creative in a subtle way.

Hey Joe, thanks, but it would be really a tough row to how to try to fit the stock to the parts even if the parts were perfect. If the parts were misshapen-end..well you know.

Thanks guys! so much to learn so little time

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2015, 04:32:23 AM »
When I am finishing up a stock, I scrape and sand right over the metal, so having finished it first would eliminate any colour I may have succeeded in acquiring.
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Offline James Rogers

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2015, 04:49:52 AM »
Richard, there are enough iron mounted English guns from the period of your Chambers kit that your steel parts will be fine for correctness IMO.


« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 05:05:31 AM by James Rogers »

Offline flatsguide

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2015, 05:37:44 AM »
What D.Taylor Sapergia described is pretty much the way it is properly done.

James, Thank you and thanks for the photos.

Regards, Richard

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2015, 05:05:35 PM »
Richard, there are enough iron mounted English guns from the period of your Chambers kit that your steel parts will be fine for correctness IMO.



James. Where did you find that photo? The softness of the engraving makes me think it might not be iron. Engraving on iron should not wear as much as that.
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Offline James Rogers

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2015, 05:46:02 PM »
Jerry, It is a mid century Birmingham piece I used to own that my friend has now. Unfortunately it saw extensive exposure to a buffing wheel prior to making it across the pond. I have even seen iron lock plates that originally were hardened of course have most all of the maker's engraved name gone from polishing and then later re-cut. Here is an untouched plate I have on a sterling mounted gun from 1767-68 London that was once very finely engraved all over. You can hardly make out the name in person.

 The parts in person on the Birmingham piece in question do show quite a bit of detail and rather quality engraving but those pictures are not very good at all. Here is a picture of the barrel though that shows how much of the engraving was removed from there!

 Here is another iron gun that I just snapped a pic of a minute ago. Another provincial piece but unbuffed. The engraving is still faint amongst the lower quality iron's striations. If you have Neal's 1740-1790 Great British Gunmakers book (the most common) you will find quite a few iron mounted pieces there as well.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 05:58:00 PM by James Rogers »

greybeard

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2015, 11:20:50 PM »
If you give breech plug threads a good wash of copper sulfate case hardening will not have any effect on the threads.
     Bob

Offline flatsguide

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2015, 12:16:00 AM »
That is interesting Greybeard. I remember using copper sulphate years ago as a layout fluid. That is outstanding wire inlay on that fowler.
Thanks for the info and photos...Richard

Offline smart dog

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2015, 01:30:23 AM »
Hi Richard,
If you are going to case harden for colors, use lower temperatures such as 1375-1450 for hardening (above about 1500-1550 colors are not produced reliably), I would suggest 50% wood and 50% bone charcoal, pack your crucible tight with parts (none touching each other) and charcoal and make sure you have a lid.  Heat soak the crucible at the proper temp for 90 minutes and then quench in room temperature water.  Now this is important: when you quench the pack, make sure you hold it low over the volume of water.  Then flip it over quickly so that the pack drops into the water as a solid brick.  Do not pour a stream of contents because that will expose the parts to air before they hit the water.  I find that a rectangular pan (crucible) with a lid is best rather than a tube shaped crucible.  It also helps if you loosely wrap parts with steel or copper wire.  Wherever the wire touches the steel to be hardened it often produces a blue color spreading from the contact point.  After quenching temper all of the parts (except frizzens) to 490 to bring out the amber and yellow colors. I have done this many times with good success.

dave    
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 01:37:31 AM by smart dog »
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Case hardening and case coloring
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2015, 01:32:31 AM »
 James . That is great information. What fascinates me about those iron gun mounts is they almost look like they were cast.
 Do you see any evidence of that? Your information made me recall a iron side plate I saw on an English gun from the late 1700's.  It looked like it was cast also. What made me suspicious was it had some of the same flaws in the same places I saw on other identical side plates.
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