Commonality of a hooked breech

[red owl]

This is a similar question to my stock pinned trigger question.  Today (myself included) when we build a replica arm with a PERCUSSION lock we usually want a hooked breech so we can easily remove the barrel for cleaning.
   In looking at some original percussion lock rifles- mostly the heavier plains rifle types- I can't tell what percentage actually had a hooked breech.  They may have "wedges" rather than pins but they often have no surrounding plate and don't appear as having been routinely removed. 
   So...this is for those that have actually handled or examined originals, any idea what percentage had a hooked breech and what percentage did not?
   One other thing, on a lot of original percussion drums, there doesn't appear to be a clean out screw.  The outside of the drum is squared- I assume to enable the gunsmith the screw the drum into the barrel.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I cannot answer your first question...percussion rifles are found with both the old style flint tang and also with patent, and hooked breeches.  As to percentages, I'd be guessing.  In truth it doesn't matter...build your rifle how you want it.  There are no wrong answers.

The "clean out screw" is a modern thing.  I've never seen an original drum that had one.  It is my opinion that that screw in modern drums is there simply to plug the hole they have drilled all the way through the drum, for ease of manufacturing.  It is not meant to be removed, though it almost always is, and buggered in the process.  When I make drums, I make them with the biggest threaded journal the barrel flat can handle, and the finest tpi.  I stop the cross hole from the inside to mate with where the nipple will piece through, and the outside end is simply rounded gently.  I don't file flats on them either, preferring to fit the drum to the barrel - then mark for the nipple seat.  I made a fixture (wrench) that slips over the drum body and locks on with a set screw, to tighten the drum to the barrel.

I hope this helps answer your question.

[rich pierce]

A hooked breech was an upgrade and would add to the cost. It's tough to generalize. Time and place and style probably matter. New England versus New York versus Ohio, Indiana, upper Midwest, and regions of the South probably all vary in the percentage of rifles with hooked breeches in the percussion era.  

[Bill Paton]

"Clean-out" screws, new or old?

I just looked at 26 drums on original American percussion barrels. All are old, from the percussion era. Eleven had old "clean-out" screws, fifteen did not. Another 16 old American barrels built with side bolsters or snails showed ten with "clean-out" screws and six without. These barrels are mostly double rifles, which might change the playing field, but my assembly certainly shows many original “clean-out” screws. Most have generous heads and slots, begging to be “screwed with”.

Taylor may be correct that they were made for drilling out the ignition path to the powder chamber and were not meant to be removed. Several of the double rifles have one head present and the other clearly broken off, which supports that argument. Although the sample is small, the higher percentage of screws in the bolster/snail group also supports the argument of those holes being the easiest way to complete the flash hole on those designs (flash holes in drums are easily drilled blind).

At any rate, as seen from my small sample, I think those drum “clean-out” screws were not uncommon in old original percussion era guns. Whether or not they were meant to be removed for “cleaning-out” remains up for grabs, in my opinion. Numerous broken off heads attest to the difficulty of removing them in practice, whether from the gunmaker’s intent of permanency, or the shooter’s neglect of not removing them ofter enough to keep them from rusting in. If my intent as a builder were that they stay in place, I would have filed the screw slots away so no clumsy owner would be tempted to break the head off with a forceful screwdriver.

Who knows?  Bill Paton

[red owl]

Well now I am going to reveal my ignorance.  I thought the threaded portion of the drum had a hole all the way through it.  I thought to install the drum you drilled a hole in the side of the barrel- from the flat all the way into the bore, then tapped the hole and screwed in the drum.  Am I wrong?  It sounds like you are talking about a blind hole is drilled and the drum is screwed into it/installed, and then a much smaller flash hole is drilled from drum into bore?
   Any explanation much appreciated. Thanks.

[Bill Paton]

A drum without a clean-out screw is drilled from the threaded end (which screws into the barrel) down the axis of the drum but stops before exiting at the same area that a clean-out screw would be located. This is the blind hole I spoke of. Then the drum is screwed into the barrel so that hole in the drum intersects and communicates with the bore. Then the nipple hole is drilled at the proper location in the drum so the nipple flash hole communicates with the previously “blind” hole in the drum.

With a snail or a bolster forged onto the side of the barrel, it is harder to make the nipple communicate with the bore unless one drills the communicating hole from the outside and plugs it with a “clean-out” screw.

Sorry for the confusion.
Bill Paton

[red owl]

Thanks- that's the way I thought it worked but over the years I have found in many instances I have made assumptions that were wrong.
   Now a days a lot of us buy barrels with drums installed so we never get into the details.
   Generally speaking then.  Let's say on the drum there is no clean out screw, it has a blind hole, and the far side has been squared so you can use a wrench to screw the drum in place. The drum has been threaded to a span equal to the side thickness of the bore. There is a hole of matching diameter in the side of the barrel all the way into the bore. The drum is then screwed in tight. Once installed the hole for the nipple/cone is drilled and tapped.  Is that correct?  I wonder if a person could make their own drum?
   Was this job done before or after fitting the breech plug?  The installed drum would have a flat face. Depending how far one screwed in the drum, the top and bottom could be flush with the bore and the middle of the drum slightly into the bore- that would leave less "nooks and crannies" for powder build up: or, the middle of the drum could be flush with the bore and the top and bottom then set back which I think would create nooks and crannies. OR, do the first way and if the breech plug isn't installed- ream the area?  Just wondering on all this?
 

[Dphariss]

Removing the nipple is no more trouble than a "clean out" screw. The screw was an extra, unnecessary operation.
But they are seen now and then on originals but they are often frozen in place by corrosion even on guns in good condition.
Part of the problem is the "modern" is used to looking at modern drums with the cleanout screw. These are made on automatic machinery I am sure and adding a tapped hole is little trouble.
Rather than making or installing a drum I would install a "patent" breech. It a far safer system.
Dan

[red owl]

I agree and I really think the drum was the lowest end method for percussion but this rifle I'm thinking about recreating had a drum.  The outside was squared- I guess to facilitate screwing into the barrel. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I think TOW sells a drum with a square filed on the end, for a wrench. 

As to how common hooked breeches are on 18th C  American rifles...I'd say extremely rare.  A. Verner used a hooked breech on the fancy rifle pictured so frequently in contemporary books.  But I believe it is dated in the first quarter of the 19th C., despite some very early architecture and stuff.   European rifles are a different bird.