powder,ball & patch recomendations

[downrange]

I am a lifelong shooter & hunter, but new to black powder. I would appreciate some recommendations, both in general and specifically on loading my rifle. The rifling is one turn in 52"& about .015 deep. It is hard to measure the rifling as there are seven groves. From the top of a land to the bottom of the opposing groove is .462. What size ball & patch and what powder granulation & charge should I start with? Are any of the black powder substitutes suitable for flintlocks, which my rifle is? Thanks in advance for any input.

[hanshi]

downrange, I don't know what barrel you have and your measurements could be misleading; being it's difficult to get reliable figures without slugging the barrel.  I'll just give you some general suggestions that have worked for me and many others.  Just be aware different make barrels may have slightly different dimensions for the same caliber and different groove depths which will determine the exact ball size and patch thickness.

As a general rule you can start with a  ball size one caliber smaller than the stated barrel caliber: i.e. .45 cal., .440 ball; .54 cal., .530 ball, etc.  The caliber is based on the diameter from land to land but the groove depth might call for a thicker or thinner patch but will have little to do with ball diameter.  You might start with pillow ticking .015 - .020 for patching material.  If the lubed load goes down with too much difficulty something thinner should be tried.  On the other hand if a load patched with pillow ticking of that thickness goes down too easily or accuracy is sub par, go up another .005" in ball diameter.  Always try a ball before you invest in a mold so as not to end up with a mold you can't really use.  If your rifle is an odd caliber, i.e. .46, etc. you may have to acquire a mold anyway to get the size you need to try as these odd sizes are often hard to come by.

Just my preference but I'd choose an easy loading patch/ball combo over a more accurate hard to load one for hunting any day.  Targets are a different story.

From the measurements you listed it sounds like you have a .45 cal.  If so a .440 ball should be tried first.  If you have a tight .45 or true .44, A ball of about .430 to .435 can be tried first.  Hope this helps.  Welcome to the forum, downrange. 

[hanshi]

Oh, forgot.  To answer your question on powder, I'd avoid "replica" powders like the plague for my flintlock.  Use genuine "black" powder, only.  Replicas work okay in caplocks but aren't reliable in flintlocks due to ignition problems.

[northmn]

I have a caplock tht replicas do not work Ok in but BP is very reliable and accurate for.  I rate replica powders about the same as a Knight rifle being a replica Hawken.

DP

[downrange]

Thanks for your input guys, now I know where to start with the ball & patch.  About the powder, I would think that fffg for the main charge and ffffg for priming would be proper. What main charge would be a good starting point? Any recomendations as to powder brand? As far as flints go, any preferances there? Also, do any of the cleaning solutions on the market neutralize the corrosive propertys of black powder or is good old soap, water & oil still the best?

[Roger Fisher]

Thanks for your input guys, now I know where to start with the ball & patch.  About the powder, I would think that fffg for the main charge and ffffg for priming would be proper. What main charge would be a good starting point? Any recomendations as to powder brand? As far as flints go, any preferances there? Also, do any of the cleaning solutions on the market neutralize the corrosive propertys of black powder or is good old soap, water & oil still the best?

I'll start with the powder brand since I'm foggy on what fer rifle you have there.
Goex or Schuetzen.  Swiss if you want the very best.  Cold water then dry/dry then oil.

[hanshi]

Goex is mostly what I use; it's affordable and performs very well.  Flints?  Well, Rich Pierce has good deals on flints and good ones are available from various ml supply houses.  You can get good knapped flints for around a buck each up to a bit over 2 bucks.  I'd think hard before paying too much more than that.  buy as many as you can at one time; they're cheaper that way and you'll run out a lot sooner than you expect.  I think the knapped, English type ones are best as they are easy to knap when they become dull and won't spark well.

Powder charge?  You'll get different opinions on that but the safest way is to start with a charge weight that equals the ball CALIBER and go up from there, 45 grns in a .45, 50grns in a .50cal, etc.  Some will disagree but I weigh my charges on a scale and set the measure to the volume of that weight.  Some lots of powder will weigh more or less than other lots of that same powder.  I use 3f for almost everything but be aware it does build higher pressure than 2f.  Depending on the gun I use anywhere from 65 - 80max grains for hunting in my .45s and 90 - 100max in my .50s & .54s.  Everyday loads use 53 grains for all three calibers.  3f primes fine but I always use 4f, myself.  Hope this all makes sense.

[Daryl]

Downrange- by the sounds of the measurement, subtract normal rifling depth of .012" and your rifle is a .45.  I like to start with a ball only .005" under bore size, which would be .445" for your rifle.  I use .020" to .022" denim for patches with this combination.

 Use of a .440" ball and a .020" patch will result in OK results, but is less accurate that the first load combination.

 .015" patches for me are only for used with a ball that is bore size or larger than the bore as if the ball is smaller than the bore, heavier patching is required to 'fill' the rifling with enough compression to mark the ball all the way around.  Less than this, gives less than best accuracy.

It all depends on what you are happy with.

[hanshi]

downrange, I guess you might be more confused than ever with these differing observations.  Don't be.  Just try them and see which one works in your gun.  Each bbl is an individual and may or may not respond the same as another identical bbl.  To me that's part of the fun of working up loads.  I like to load without worrying about breaking my rod & never had accuracy problems.  But that's just in MY gun.

[downrange]

Thanks, everyone for your help. It is greatly appreciated. Now to assemble some stuff to shoot with. I have been perusing the Dixie Gun Works on line catalogue. Are there any other sources for BP supplies you find helpful? Thanks again.

[Daryl]

Taylor and I like trackofthewolf.com.  We've had nothing but good experiences with them - prompt delivery ranks high when you've got customs waits in the way.  Small packages usually come straight to the mail box, bypassing customs - cool!

[hanshi]

Too many to list, actually.  Best to go on line.  Plenty will come up.  Many swear by Track of the Wolf, Midway, Cabelas & many others.  Powderinc.com is a good source for powder.  Perhaps some others on this forum can be more specific in their recommendations.

[swordmanjohn]

Just to name a few... track of the wolf, cabela,midway,dixons,dixie gun works, jedediah star,october country.
And as far as a someone just getting into muzzle loading id say making sure you fully seat the ball on the powder charge everytime ,would be one of the most important practices.

[hanshi]

Amen on that!  An improperly seated ball even with a moderate powder charge can still ring an ml barrel; I know from sad experience.

[Candle Snuffer]

Thanks, everyone for your help. It is greatly appreciated. Now to assemble some stuff to shoot with. I have been perusing the Dixie Gun Works on line catalogue. Are there any other sources for BP supplies you find helpful? Thanks again.

Here is another good source;

www.MuzzleloaderBuildersSupply.com

[Jerry V Lape]

Srprised you didn't ask, and no one volunteered , about the other component of your rifle's load - the patch's lubricant.  It is every bit as critical as the other parts and has more answers/opinions too.  Come back when you have time to start a much longer discussion. 

[hanshi]

You're right, nobody mentioned it so I'll keep the topic going, I suppose.  I've used mixtures of Crisco & beeswax, straight Crisco, water based lubes, saliva and the various yellow, green & white store bought stuff, etc. just to name a few.  I'd be less than honest if I said there was a difference.  I never found it to be so.  The store bought "butters" and so on smell better but Crisco does as well is cheaper and seems cleaner.  About the only problem (if you could call it a problem, I don't) with Crisco is it doesn't hold up quite as well in hot weather.  I prefer the various liquid lubes for general shooting.  If I had to choose my favorite (current) I'd have to say it's the "Black Solve" that DGW carries.  Buy a small bottle, mix it with a quart of water and you're set for years.  I'm sure there's stuff around the house that would make fine lube. 

My first load is always a grease, usually Crisco, patch.  If a load is going to be in the gun for much more than a couple hours, I'll lube with grease.  At the range and for reloads in the woods I use a wet patch.  In my experience greased patches gum up the fowling and make loading harder.  Wet patches, on the other hand, dissolve fowling and leave the bore clean after each shot.  I've shot dozens of rounds this way without having to swab out the bore.  The last shot loaded as easily as the second.  A fowling ring does eventually form in front of the powder where the ball stops and should be swabbed out after a while; but you don't have to. 

To prevent contaminating or wetting the powder I always use an over powder wad, either a dry patch, wonder wad, wasp nest or paper.  the wad itself helps clean out the bore.  If I'm in a hurry I forget the wad.  Saliva is excellent but sometimes you just don't have any.  Though I've never used them, oils such as olive, canola, etc. would probably work well.

The main thing is I don't think the type of lube you use makes any great difference at least as far as accuracy goes.  At least I've never been able to discern any real difference.  I think there's more made of this than it deserves.  We all like to think black powder shooting is esoteric and mysterious with arcane formulas that are only for those "in the know".  Horsefeathers!  Our forebears had other things on their minds.  They used what they could get...and it worked!  Otherwise we wouldn't be here.  Are some lubes & such better than others?  Probably.  How you gonna know without going to more trouble than it's worth.  If you shoot competition at 100 + yards and there's 1/4 inch between win or lose, it's worth the trouble.  Me, I can't shoot remotely that well with open sights.  I know most will disagree with me on this but this is my honest opinion gleaned from nearly 45 years of black powder shooting and hunting.  I respect contrary opinions as I know others have had different results from mine.  Oh, and I make much use of my chronograph in testing.     

[David G]

You may also want to get a copy of the Dutch Schoultz Accuracy System. It's a good discussion of the different components(patch, powder,ball,lube,etc..)  used in working up a load and how you can adjust them. It will get you thinking in the right direction. It may seem a little overwhelming at the starting point but don't be discouraged. It simply takes some expeirimenting to know what will shoot best in your gun and there is an initial cost to find this out.Think of it as a little journey and when you get there-your there,and you have gotten to know your rifle in the process and it's accuracy potential.

[chapmans]

Don't foget about Log Cabin, and Tip Curtis they both carry everything and are great to deal with.
   Steve C.

[hanshi]

Very good advice, David G.

[downrange]

Hi guys,well I'm on my way thanks to your advice. I found a piece of pure lead & slugged the bbl. (the first 1/8 " anyway). Land to opposing groove is .462 & grooves are .012 deep which makes the bore a true .450. I have ordered .440 & .445 balls, .018 thick pillow ticking patches, Blacksolve, English napped flints & some accys. ( including a ball puller!) from Dixie Gun Works. A local Civil War reenactor told me that they fill the base of their minie balls with Crisco to keep the fowling soft, so I will start with that & the Blacksolve as patch lube. I will use FFFG for the main charge, but I am still unclear as to wheather FFFFG powder in the pan is really necessary for good ignition. Thanks again for all your help, I will keep you posted (no pun intended) as things progress.

[Roger Fisher]

Just to name a few... track of the wolf, cabela,midway,dixons,dixie gun works, jedediah star,october country.
And as far as a someone just getting into muzzle loading id say making sure you fully seat the ball on the powder charge everytime ,would be one of the most important practices.

Chuck Dixon does no mail order (cept his book) Track is good and Jim bo Chambers depending on what you need.... Mark that rammin rod so you know shes' loaded!!  water (not hot) to clean - dry dry - then oil.   Clean the innards of the lock at fairly frequent (at least) times.   And shoot the ol girl often!  So you learn what she wants to be accurate!

[Daryl]

Downrange- you are well on the way - good components.  I use spit for lube in the summer- at least the .40 does, while the .45 barrel doesn't care.  Whatever the gun wants, that's what to use.  My GM .45 (60" twist)  likes 70gr. 3F or 80gr. 2F. That seems like a lot of powder for a .45, but I'm talking about 50 to 100yard accuracy, not what shoots well at 25 yards. About anything shots well at close range- even 25gr., then the accuracy falls apart farther out.

You'll find store-bought patches don't mic. what the package says. I've some .018" oxyoke pre-cuts that are only .015" thick. No wonder they didn't shoot well with the .440" ball, but do OK with the .445".  I use a micrometer to measure patch thickness as the calipers give varying readings and no two guys squeeze them the same, so one guy's .020" is another's .015" or .025" - I use the mic on all fabrics as it gives repeatable measurements.  Some mics. will give different readings too, depending on how tight the ratchet is. 3 clicks or 12 clicks gives the same readings with mine.

We like 4F for prime here, although 3f will work in most good locks.  Actual timing is slower with 3F -as per 'Pletch's' timed tests.  If you've done a lot of 'other' shooting, you'll be able to tell the difference yourself.
Crisco will work fine for patch lube, in most guns, but there are better concoctions, like Lehigh and Shenandoah Valley lubes along with plain old spit or Hoppe's 9 Plus. Straight Hoppe's #9 is for modern smokeless guns, the 'Plus' is for BP guns.  Patches have to be wet, not damp, to keep the fouling soft and clean easily as you load the next shot eliminating the need to wipe while shooting & gives no change in accuracy for an entire day's shooting.

If you want to clean or wipe every shot, the load you develop doing this will be particular to that style of shooting and will not shoot the same if tried dirty.  Consistency is the key or soul to shooting accurately with a muzzleloading rifle.  Everything must be done exactly the same each shot.

[hanshi]

Downrange, you made some good choices.  I pretty much second everything Daryl said but will add the following.  I use Hoppe's #9 Plus bp solvent and it's good.  I predict you'll really like the Black Solve; used for patches it will last for years since one bottle makes a quart of lube.  don't leave it in your bbl for a long time as it can dry out, never overnight, for instance.  I use it for reloads, never the first load.  to keep it from wetting the powder just put a ball of toilet paper over the powder then seat the ball/patch.  As Daryl suggested the patches should be WET, not damp.  This way you can shoot all day without cleaning though a fouling ring can develop where the ball is seated (after a few dozen shots).  Easy to swab out.

Crisco is really good (I use it exclusively) but a little messy in hot weather.  Cheap, too.  You might consider loading the .445 ball for your first shot (hunting) and carrying .440 for reloads.  When you're in a hurry and excited, you want your reload to be as foolproof as possible.  I now use .440 exclusively though I still have my .445 mold.  Test this at the range because sometimes the larger ball has a different poi.  good luck.   

[Daryl]

Hunting vs tgt. shooting and ball sizes is something I didn't think of - while Flintr covered that. Yes - by all means use the smaller ball, ie: .440 for hunting. The difference in accuracy between the small and large was only 1/2" at 50 yards in my GM barrel. This is unnoticeable in a hunting situation, but means points in a match, which is why I always suggest only .005" under to bore size for accuracy work.  A .440 with a .022" denim patch is easy to load.

Remember to radius your crown- nice and smooth lines, no sharp machined corners at the tops of the lands nor bottom of the grooves.  Emery in 320 grit works well.