Most Surviving Rifles?

[Avlrc]

I just read the post where Shreckmeister says he has studied 65 rifles made by Wm * Shreckengost. That made me wonder what maker of yesteryear has the most surviving guns today? The most I found by makers I collect is about a dozen by two brothers. I actually thought that was a lot, but now know that is not very many, if there is 65  in existence by WM Shreckengost. Any other makers close to this?

[Shreckmeister]

I've seen a lot of rifles by Nicholas Shennefelt.  More than 20, but he was also in my "backyard"  Shreckengost was a full time smith for 6 census
reports 1840-1890 and I've spent way too many hours seeking them out, but I suspect that there are other makers with similar production.  There
appears to have been some significant output by some of the Bedford makers.  Shreckengost by virtue of his work late into the percussion era and
almost to it's end seems to have a lot of survivors, probably more than the early makers since their rifles had a lot more years of hard use since they
were made.

[Dennis Glazener]

I wish that I had documented and kept an account of all the original Gillespie's that I have seen over the years. I feel sure it would be 60-70, probably more. But these were made by a family of at least 14 makers and not all of them are signed so you just have to guess which Gillespie made it.

What's so interesting is that when I first got interested in these family rifles I was told that only 2 or 3 of the rifles survived. I have been allowed to view some only after swearing I would not reveal its owner's name. Others I know about but have been unable to view.

I could tell you stories of the length's that some have gone to keep the where of some of the rifles unknown from me and from others What concerns me is that when some of these older owners are dead and gone younger family members sell them to pawn shops are just let them disappear!
Dennis

[Shreckmeister]

 I've had similar experiences with the secret guns that the owners don't want to share with anyone  shreckengost trifles have a long history of being stolen by neighbors and family members and anybody else   one guy told me a story of buying his back in a bar from somebody who bought it from the owners son.  The gun had just been stolen and he was sitting in a bar A couple evenings later and a guy approached him and tried to sell it back to him. He bought it back rather than calling the police because he was afraid ihe would never see it again

[jdm]

In 1977 Al Sullivan wrote an article on John Armstrong. He said at that time there were twenty eight known. I know of at least two more sense then putting the number at thirty. There are probably more I haven't heard of. If I remember John Armstrong died in 1842 or so.

[Avlrc]

Pretty interesting at the number of rifles that have survived by some makers. More than I thought.

[mr. no gold]

Nicholas Beyer comes to mind as a maker who produced a large number of rifles, many of which still survive. I can think of about 60 that I have viewed over the past half century. A surprising number were in great condition and appeared to be ready for use. Since it is unusual to find one of his pieces that lacks carving, he must have been a tireless craftsman and while he was not up to the artistic level of Armstrong or other great maker, he delivered a lot for the dollar the client spent.
Dick 

[Buck]

Dick,
Why do you think he wasn't a quality maker in comparison to Armstrong? One might say the fact that his remaining body of work still in existence today might prove that his work was of higher quality than Armstrong's. Some might say that Armstrong's work was essentially boring and repetitive and the fact that only 30 remain is significantly lacking durability and quality fabrication. I admire and have owned pieces from the both of them, and I think to say he lacked the artistic merit and quality that Armstrong and some of the others produced is wrong. Not jousting Dick just expressing a different point of view.
Buck

[Dave B]

I have only held a couple Nicolas Beyer rifles and never an Armstrong as of yet. But to my thinking if we are talking about ability to carve and engrave I vote for Armstrong. Beyer seems to me to be much more of a folk art carver vs the more classical forms we see in Armstrong's work. Its really apples and oranges in that regard. Beyer is a fine craftsman in his vein, as Armstrong's in his own. I would not regret owning an example of either one of their works.

[Buck]

Exactly, 2 different styles and shouldn't be compared.
Buck

[SWVAMNTSmith]

I would have to throw out Honakers, because there were so many of them, so many generations and in 3 or 4 known states.
Carpers would be another to consider as well, lot of generations of them in WV.

[mr. no gold]

Okay scholars, let's move the chess pieces closer to home, then. You have Beyer close to Lebanon, JP Beck was next door, Berry was just over the hill, and down road back toward the east, Bonewitz and Reedy. In my opinion, Beyer's work does not compare with the work of any of this contemporary peer group on a consistent basis and collector prices appear to support this. Beyer produced a fine rifle, to be sure and I have three, one is the best of any and is one of his earliest. Somewhere in his career path he adopted the 'folky' PA Dutch idiom in his work, and that appeals to me. I like birds and tulips and squiggles, but in the end, the style doesn't come close to the work of Bonewitz in artistic excellence and execution. I have a Bonewitz so the comparison is an easy one. It might be noteworthy that the grandest book on rifles yet, "…The American Longrifle…" by Hansen does not show a Beyer rifle, (I would have included one had the book had been my effort). So, it might just be that I am not alone in my observation.
You need to realize that these are just my feelings and opinions, (based on my collecting experience) and are not meant to set fire to the hair of the more sensitive segment of the collecting crowd. To me, school or region doesn't matter: a good gun is a good gun, regardless.
Dick 

[Buck]

Dick,
"Sensitive segment" I know John is laughing at that. I agree with many of your points, I would add my opinion to the comment about Mr. Hansen's book. I would ask, have you examined the carving on the Beck rifle? I know you well enough to know you are a man of your word, so when you say you have one of the best Beyers out there I won't question it, so I would ask that you examine your Beyer and the photos of the Beck in Hansen's Book and tell me what you see.  I have one of the best Beyers out there also and what I see is a lot of identical squiggly lines on that Beck. The carving at the wrist (on both sides) is identical to the carving on the rifle I have. One might conclude that this rifle could have possibly been carved / stocked by Beyer. I wouldn't say that the the engraving was executed by him but the stocking of the gun is a possibility. Just an observation and food for thought within a friendly joust.  
Respectfully (sensitively) Buck.

[MGillman]

Same with my Jacob Shaffer ancestor when I began researching him. I was told only 2 were known. I'm up to 14 now.

[JTR]

Okay scholars, let's move the chess pieces closer to home, then. You have Beyer close to Lebanon, JP Beck was next door, Berry was just over the hill, and down road back toward the east, Bonewitz and Reedy. In my opinion, Beyer's work does not compare with the work of any of this contemporary peer group on a consistent basis and collector prices appear to support this. Beyer produced a fine rifle, to be sure and I have three, one is the best of any and is one of his earliest. Somewhere in his career path he adopted the 'folky' PA Dutch idiom in his work, and that appeals to me. I like birds and tulips and squiggles, but in the end, the style doesn't come close to the work of Bonewitz in artistic excellence and execution. I have a Bonewitz so the comparison is an easy one. It might be noteworthy that the grandest book on rifles yet, "…The American Longrifle…" by Hansen does not show a Beyer rifle, (I would have included one had the book had been my effort). So, it might just be that I am not alone in my observation.
You need to realize that these are just my feelings and opinions, (based on my collecting experience) and are not meant to set fire to the hair of the more sensitive segment of the collecting crowd. To me, school or region doesn't matter: a good gun is a good gun, regardless.
Dick  

Dick,
"Sensitive segment" I know John is laughing at that. I agree with many of your points, I would add my opinion to the comment about Mr. Hansen's book. I would ask, have you examined the carving on the Beck rifle? I know you well enough to know you are a man of your word, so when you say you have one of the best Beyers out there I won't question it, so I would ask that you examine your Beyer and the photos of the Beck in Hansen's Book and tell me what you see.  I have one of the best Beyers out there also and what I see is a lot of identical squiggly lines on that Beck. The carving at the wrist (on both sides) is identical to the carving on the rifle I have. One might conclude that this rifle could have possibly been carved / stocked by Beyer. I wouldn't say that the the engraving was executed by him but the stocking of the gun is a possibility. Just an observation and food for thought within a friendly joust.  
Respectfully (sensitively) Buck.

Well, both you guys have very nice Beyer’s, so I would respectfully suggest it will likely always be a matter of opinion as to whether he was, or wasn't, as accomplished as his contemporaries.

However, in this day of ruddiness and crassness on the internet, I would happily award both of you a nice trophy for your wonderful degree of sensitivity!

Now, on my part, I don’t own a very nice Beyer. Or even a ratty Beyer! But I do own a very nice sports car!
So, I would award myself a nice, yes, a very nice sensitivity trophy as well, for my smiles and approving thumbs up to those guys that find themselves driving Mustangs, Corvettes, or even a Porsche!

With tongue in cheek, and PC approvingly,
John        

[eddillon]

Well, both you guys have very nice Beyer’s, so I would respectfully suggest it will likely always be a matter of opinion as to whether he was, or wasn't, as accomplished as his contemporaries.

However, in this day of ruddiness and crassness on the internet, I would award both of you a nice trophy for your wonderful degree of sensitivity!

Now, on my part, I don’t own a very nice Beyer. Or even a ratty Beyer! But I do own a very nice sports car!
So, I would award myself a sensitivity trophy also, for my approving thumbs up to those guys that find themselves driving Mustangs, Corvettes, or a Porsche!

With tongue in cheek, and PC approvingly,
John        

John, I once owned a 1955 Porsche Continental Speedster.  Does that count for anything?     

[JTR]

Ed, A 1955 Speedster, yep! 
Approvingly, John 

[Buck]

John,
Always entertaining.
Buck

[Dphariss]

We have to remember that apprentices did a lot of the work in some shops and may have built whole guns that were marked with the masters name or mark. So this makes higher production more believable. We also have to remember than many many rifles have been lost to various causes, not the least of which were WW-I and even WW-II scrap drives. I man I knew in the 60s who went to Canada for WW-I before US involvement said when he came home some years later he only had a stock from one of his "good guns" left. So its possible that we only see 10% of the original production maybe even less, depending on variables.

Dan

[mr. no gold]

Do apprentices build sports cars, too? Just wondering how cars got drug into a discussion about surviving rifles. Apples and oranges for sure! What does the sensitive crowd have to say about this?
Dick

[Bob Roller]

Do apprentices build sports cars, too? Just wondering how cars got drug into a discussion about surviving rifles. Apples and oranges for sure! What does the sensitive crowd have to say about this?
Dick

I am not sensitive so I say Viva Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg-Packard-Stutz-Marmon V16 and anything else with 8 or more cylinders.

Bob Roller

[Shreckmeister]

Speaking of working on cars, my wife's cousin just visited from India.  He collects American cars there.  They can't get body
parts over there for early cars, so he employed a guy to hammer out body parts to do the resto work for a year.  He showed me
a clip of this guy doing the work by hand on a small anvil.  It was amazing. If I told you all the more that talented man was paid to
hammer out those body panels you would be trying to hire him yourself. The panels looked original when he was done with them.

[Mike R]

If you count late guns, I'd say Lemans are very common--don't have a number though...

[Joe S.]

Yes the LeMans was common but the GTO was better,I had two,oops back on cars again 

[Curt J]

There was a maker about thirty miles from me, named Henry P. Brunker. He made rifles in Ottawa, LaSalle County, Illinois, from 1848 -1871.  I have seen around 70 of his rifles, and own 24 of them myself. Other midwestern makers who were quite prolific would have to include George Spangler in Monroe, Wisconsin, and Bixler & Iddings in Lafayette, Indiana. I have never kept an exact count on either of them, but have seen at least a couple of dozen by each.