Newbie question regarding Priming horns

[timalso]

While it is probably the best practice, did colonials always use FFFg priming powder in flintlocks or did they just use what they had in their larger flask?

[PPatch]

Ho boy.

According to discussion I have seen here on ALR there is some debate on whether colonials used priming horns at all.

dave

[Bob Roller]

Ho boy.

According to discussion I have seen here on ALR there is some debate on whether colonials used priming horns at all.

dave

Have there been any priming horns discovered with rifles that have the original bag and horn with them???
I can't visualize a frontier battle where a man would get his rifle reloaded and then get another horn out of a bag to get the lock operational. There are some beautiful horns in the Huntington WV Museum of Art and I don't recall seeing any miniature horns.

Bob Roller

[ricktull]

I think priming horns did exist then, and have read a few times about grinding powder finer for them, etc. from the amount of pics of originals (not many) I think they were not the norm. However, a nice matched set sure looks good!

[Kermit]

Take one as part of your kit to an HC event. Report back what you hear. 

[G. Elsenbeck]

Take one as part of your kit to an HC event. Report back what you hear. 

 

[G. Elsenbeck]

Seriously, from my research aside from Hollywood buggering the issue, 3F wasn't made until the 1830-40 time frame by Duponts.  I believe the primary reason was the introduction of the percussion ignitions trying to catch on and even then it took a few tries to get the primers to work ALL the time.   I believe 4g didn't come around until around the Civil War time frame??
In the colonial times you had two types of black powder:  Canon fodder and all other.  Now, would there have been some enterprising individual to grind down his powder to work in his rifle or fowler, maybe a couple.  On a large mass, NO.  If done, it was probably by a gentleman farmer so he could hunt occasionally.  Can you actually see a longhunter messing around with a second horn while being pursued by the natives.   Give me a break.  Perhaps the size of the touchholes were larger back then?  And grew smaller as the calibers used were lighter? 

[Down South]

I have seen only a couple of horn bag combos that had a priming horn as  part of the outfit from its origin.  Those were from the squirrel hunter periog...1830's and later.  Both were with southern squirrel rifles.  I have seen pictures from the day of chunk shooters with primimg horns.  Those are my only references.

[Horner75]

I'm only guessing, but I think that many of the smaller so-called powder horns some think that are primers are in reality pistol flask horns or salt horns.

Rick

[Frank Barker]

Here in Appalachia there seems to be an abundance of very small old original horns, usually averaging around 3 1/2 to 4 inches long. The plug is generally made of pine with a pine stopper. I tend to feel that these were used to carry caps in for a percussion gun. They usually have a small eye screw in the butt with a string attached from it to the stopper plug, indicating that it was carried inside a pouch or in the shooter's pocket.

Kind Regards
Frank Barker

[Dphariss]

While it is probably the best practice, did colonials always use FFFg priming powder in flintlocks or did they just use what they had in their larger flask?

I doubt they had FFFF for priming. But priming horns WERE known because they were used as far back as matchlocks.
I used fine powder for priming for a several of reasons. Its a lot easier to trickle through vent for example. Its easier to prime just the pan and not the whole lock. And flame propagation through the prime is  little faster and this makes for a hotter fireball sooner. Which will reduce lock time. Probably by as much as the total lock time of some modern firearms.
The only mention of powder I can recall right offhand was a document stating that the riflemen needed finer powder FF. Nor do I recall any mention of finer powder being taken on the Lewis and Clark expedition decades later and they wrote everything down, or at least it seems they did.
In "Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850" pg 257 is the hunting pouch of David Cooke B. 1761, D. 1842 and its contents there is both a priming and an salt horn. Now when did he start using a priming horn? Did he ALWAYS use  a priming horn? Not much chance of finding out at this late date.  But its unlikely he adopted it when he was 80.
My answer is do what you like. One must remember that most of the small items that accompanied the rifle are gone at this late date. While a scrimshawed main horn might have been kept in some cases a small plain horn may well have been disposed of or simply scattered/tossed out with other items and lost.

Dan

[Dphariss]

Seriously, from my research aside from Hollywood buggering the issue, 3F wasn't made until the 1830-40 time frame by Duponts.  I believe the primary reason was the introduction of the percussion ignitions trying to catch on and even then it took a few tries to get the primers to work ALL the time.   I believe 4g didn't come around until around the Civil War time frame??
In the colonial times you had two types of black powder:  Canon fodder and all other.  Now, would there have been some enterprising individual to grind down his powder to work in his rifle or fowler, maybe a couple.  On a large mass, NO.  If done, it was probably by a gentleman farmer so he could hunt occasionally.  Can you actually see a longhunter messing around with a second horn while being pursued by the natives.   Give me a break.  Perhaps the size of the touchholes were larger back then?  And grew smaller as the calibers used were lighter? 

A very fine powder (about like FFFF) called "Revolver" was used in percussion revolvers but when the mills started marketing it I could not say but suspect it would be 1850s. I am also sure that the increasing number of small bore rifles in use after 1800 or so would have resulted finer powders being marketed. Once pressed and broken powder was the norm there was FFFF powder being made as a natural part of the process and if they could sell it rather than recycle it the powder mills would have done this I would think. 
Another thing to remember is that before about 1750-70 and in America well after that, a lot of powder was not press cake powder but was granulated by being forced through a screen while still wet. Or so I have read. This would have made FFF and FFFF nearly impossible to make.  Something else to consider.

Dan

[Ky-Flinter]

Here's a link to an article on the subject by Gary Brumfield....  http://www.flintriflesmith.com/WritingandResearch/Published/priminghorns_mb.htm

-Ron

[heinz]

From a practicle standpoint, priming from a full size horn is awkward and not allowed on some shooting ranges. If you are going to be shooting on the line or standing on a woods walk with a loaded unprimed rifle waiting to shoot you will find a priming horn convenient if historically questionable. The navy used them on naval cannon but probably not rifleman on the revolutionary frontier.
Have any of you ever seen any records of patching cloth in an inventory?

[rich pierce]

It's easy to find a lot of primitive small powder horns.  Lots of these are the right size for priming horns and so get classified as such.  Mostly they seem to be homemade country horns from the percussion era.

[longcruise]

Rich, I agree, horns of that size would be well suited to a day Hunt.

[Virginiarifleman]

From what i have read and the discussions on this subject. until late 1800's there was but one granulation of powder. best known today as FFG.

[Chuck Burrows]

From what i have read and the discussions on this subject. until late 1800's there was but one granulation of powder. best known today as FFG.

not true - just three references to various F grades pre-1800
THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
September 25, 1736
Charleston, South Carolina
JUST imported in the King George, Jacob Ayres from London, white and colour'd plains, strip'd duffils, bullets, shot, F FF FFF gunpowder, Saxe Gotha hoop-petticoats,

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
June 11, 1741
Loaf Sugar, Gun Powder in half Barrels FF and FFF, Bullets, Strouds, Indian Trading Guns, Mens and Boys Felt Hats

The Pennsylvania Gazette
January 7, 1752
Imported (chiefly) in the Myrtilla, the last ship from London,
....best London steel, shot, F, FF, and FFF gunpowder....

[Arcturus]

What did a soldier armed with a box full of paper cartridges do in the event of a misfire, a flash in the pan?  How did one re-prime the pan under such circumstances?  I've never seen any reference to this, but a small priming horn would seem to be a smart thing to have on hand, even if just for emergencies.  Has anyone seen any documentation on how one would re-prime?

[PPatch]

What did a soldier armed with a box full of paper cartridges do in the event of a misfire, a flash in the pan?  How did one re-prime the pan under such circumstances?  I've never seen any reference to this, but a small priming horn would seem to be a smart thing to have on hand, even if just for emergencies.  Has anyone seen any documentation on how one would re-prime?

I don't know the "official" answer to your question Jerry but to my mind it seems likely they would simply sacrifice another cartridge to obtain priming powder. At least that would be one available and quick solution.

dave

[Chuck Burrows]

The adage - "Lock and Load" refers to the system used by soldiers with paper cartridges and flintlocks - you primed the lock from the cartridge and then loaded the rest of the cartridge in the barrel.

[jdm]

I have a small military style priming horn( brass but cap & spout  ). Marked RRAB on cap. Royal Regiment Artillery Battalion, I believe around 1780-1810.

[Horner75]

I have a small military style priming horn( brass but cap & spout  ). Marked RRAB on cap. Royal Regiment Artillery Battalion, I believe around 1780-1810.

Could it be a pistol horn or from a cased set?...Just asking?

[Timber]

Cannon Fodder was not a grade of powder.
Cannon fodder is an informal, derogatory term for combatants who are regarded or treated as expendable in the face of enemy fire. The term is generally used in situations where combatants are forced to deliberately fight against hopeless odds (with the foreknowledge that they will suffer extremely high casualties) in an effort to achieve a strategic goal; an example is the trench warfare of World War I. The term may also be used (somewhat pejoratively) to differentiate infantry from other forces (such as artillery, air force or the navy), or to distinguish expendable low-grade or inexperienced combatants from supposedly more valuable veterans.

[timalso]

Thank you all for your many replies. I stand as confused as before, but feel the general concensus is no priming horns.