Author Topic: California Schuetzen Rifle  (Read 7435 times)

Offline rtp

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California Schuetzen Rifle
« on: April 05, 2017, 11:04:19 PM »
Hello everyone,
This is a recently completed California Style rifle built by Steve Garbe and Dan Pharris...Thought I should show it off  little.  Ken Breisen 38 Cal false muzzle barrel.  Bob Roller lock & triggers.  Sure do like it...shoots so well.
Roger Perry












Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2017, 11:11:55 PM »
COOL! A TC! ;)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2017, 12:33:10 AM »
COOL! A TC! ;)

Not a production rifle because it doesn't have a pine stock.
Levity aside,that is a good looking "Scheibenbuchse"
That hammer is one Bill Large designed and showed to me
in 1972. I still have the mould for it and I have been sorta/
kinda thinking about making 12 caplocks with the ones I have
in the shop using this "3 pin"mechanism which is every bit as
rigid as the "4 pin"style recently shown here.
I was thinking of a Hawken style plate. The one shown is the
one I made for Helmut Mohr in Mayen Hausen Germany in
past years.
Bob Roller

Offline rich pierce

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2017, 01:21:08 AM »
"California Scheutzen, on such a winter' day"

By the Mama Sheutzens and the Papa Schuetzens. Very clean looking rifle.
Andover, Vermont

Offline rtp

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2017, 02:58:06 AM »
Mr. Roller,
Thanks for responding.  It's a fine lock and I really appreciate having it.  You may remember some years back I inquired about a Bill Large slug barrel that I also have. It too is a 375 16 twist with a false muzzle.  It has DARBY and the other information on it.  If I remember correctly you stated it was done for a Mr. Darby about 1960.  At that time you made me a lock with a Bill Large hammer and a long bar trigger set as well.  Some day I'll get around to making a bench gun with these. I'll dig it out and take a photo if some of you folks would have interest in seeing it. It too is a very fine lock. Thanks, Roger

Offline Daryl

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2017, 04:52:45 AM »
I am always interested in seeing fine rifles and parts.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2017, 06:26:21 AM »
Mr. Roller,
Thanks for responding.  It's a fine lock and I really appreciate having it.  You may remember some years back I inquired about a Bill Large slug barrel that I also have. It too is a 375 16 twist with a false muzzle.  It has DARBY and the other information on it.  If I remember correctly you stated it was done for a Mr. Darby about 1960.  At that time you made me a lock with a Bill Large hammer and a long bar trigger set as well.  Some day I'll get around to making a bench gun with these. I'll dig it out and take a photo if some of you folks would have interest in seeing it. It too is a very fine lock. Thanks, Roger

Roger,
The name Darby may be Darby McGraw who I think lived in or near Portsmouth,Ohio.
I think he worked for a telephone company.
Many thanks for the kind comment about the lock,

Bob Roller

Offline rtp

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2017, 06:30:18 PM »
Bob,
Here are some pics of the other Bill Large style lock you did sometime back.  Although it's a nice lock, it is completely different from the other 3 pin shown above. The feel of the one above is...well... I don't know...just amazing. In fact every one of your locks I've had over the years are unique to themselves...interesting and I am fascinated and curious.   Evolution  is design ?? Could you comment on them please.  Pics of the Bill Large barrel to...what is the meaning of the L stamp on the side and the muzzle?
Thanks Roger












Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2017, 07:22:46 PM »
The rifle pictured looks very much like Henry Slotterbecks work, except for the hunchbacked German style lock. Actually the lock is correct except for the curviture of the rear of the plate. The Slotterbeck brothers used the bar in wood feature like this lock demonstrates. Henry worked in Alameda Calif. before moving to Los Angeles. He marketed his guns under the name Slotter& Co. Charles worked in San Francisco, and then moved to Lakeport Calif. and signed his work C. Slotterbeck. Charles was a member of the California Scheutzen club.

 Hungry Horse

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2017, 07:55:03 PM »
The rifle pictured looks very much like Henry Slotterbecks work, except for the hunchbacked German style lock. Actually the lock is correct except for the curviture of the rear of the plate. The Slotterbeck brothers used the bar in wood feature like this lock demonstrates. Henry worked in Alameda Calif. before moving to Los Angeles. He marketed his guns under the name Slotter& Co. Charles worked in San Francisco, and then moved to Lakeport Calif. and signed his work C. Slotterbeck. Charles was a member of the California Scheutzen club.

 Hungry Horse

I didn't know there were any "standards" for lock plates. The ones I sent to Germany were copied
from an antique owned by Helmut Mohr who got all of them with the exception of the VERY few I
sold here.In 1987 I donated one to the NMLRA along with a fancy double set trigger as prizes for
the Schuetzen match and later that lock was found minus the hammer in a flea market and God
only knows where the triggers went.

Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2017, 08:19:13 PM »
Bob,
Here are some pics of the other Bill Large style lock you did sometime back.  Although it's a nice lock, it is completely different from the other 3 pin shown above. The feel of the one above is...well... I don't know...just amazing. In fact every one of your locks I've had over the years are unique to themselves...interesting and I am fascinated and curious.   Evolution  is design ?? Could you comment on them please.  Pics of the Bill Large barrel to...what is the meaning of the L stamp on the side and the muzzle?
Thanks Roger


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Roger,
the lock you pictured is an upgrade on most American style locks like seen on so many
of the plains rifles and notably the Hawken.The 3 and 4 pin locks with the sear on an
axle is a much more sophisticated design but also more expensive.The 4 pin that was
shown is $300 and the schuetzen is $250 with the three pin lock.Other than the classy
looks of the 4 pin there is no difference in the performance. On the conventional lock,
the back thrust of the mainspring is against the sear screw and it must be tight. If you
look close you'll see the sear screw threads are buried into the plate so all that thrust
isn't on the stubby 4x40 threads. The 3 and 4 pin designs are very rigid and I have a
full size photo in color of a 5 pin Brazier.
Alignment is the big "secret" along with very precise fitting of the tumbler shaft and the
little support bearing thru the bridle plus the preload of the mainspring is the key to a
quality lock.I take pride in my work and high success rates with locks all over the world
speak for themselves.
The "L" on the muzzle of that barrel may indicate it was hand rifled on a machine Bill
and I made in 1960 or he may have "dressed"the lands a bit.There is a nearly identical
barrel in Australia that is still winning matches after many years of use.

Bob Roller

Offline rtp

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2017, 08:23:08 PM »
Actually I was going for the style of August Browning. He was born in Germany in 1837...became a US citizen in 1859 and started in business in San Francisco as a locksmith in 1867....hence the German influence in the plate shape.  He started in business with Alois Schneider and made kind of racy style stocks used both for hunting and target use...as did many California style guns.  Roger

Offline rtp

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2017, 08:46:02 PM »
Indeed you should be proud. I can see how one could make a career of making them....very interesting.  Thanks again.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2017, 08:57:42 PM »
Charles Slotterbecks target rifles used a lock much like the lock in the above rifle, except it had a rounded rear profile. His locks were very high quality, as was his trigger assembly's. Sheutzen matches pretty much died here in California with the outbreak of WWI.
 I think Steven D. Hugh's built a couple of Slotterbeck rifle copies back when he was getting started. That might be where Steve Garbe got some of his inspiration, since I know they are friends.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2017, 04:12:24 PM »
Charles Slotterbecks target rifles used a lock much like the lock in the above rifle, except it had a rounded rear profile. His locks were very high quality, as was his trigger assembly's. Sheutzen matches pretty much died here in California with the outbreak of WWI.
 I think Steven D. Hugh's built a couple of Slotterbeck rifle copies back when he was getting started. That might be where Steve Garbe got some of his inspiration, since I know they are friends.

  Hungry Horse

I would like to see a major revival of the Schuetzen matches strictly for muzzle loaders using long bullets.
100 and 200 meter offhand on the 25 ring target.Rice makes a barrel that is used by Schuetzen maker
Helmut Mohr in Germany in a 38 caliber with Pope style rifling that shoots like a 22.
The book by Hamilton& Rowe have a wide variety of these great rifles organized by region and is worth
looking at.These are simple rifles and many have no on board rib or loading rod which makes for an easier
build. Pecatonica has stocks for them on the Mohr pattern if anyone is interested.

Bob Roller

Offline Dphariss

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2017, 04:14:09 PM »
Steve gave me the parts and told me what was wanted. The stock was not everything I would have wanted but it shaped out OK.
I gave it back in the white and Steve did the final finish work. I though I had more pictures...

Dan


He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Daryl

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2017, 07:11:51 PM »
Roger - are there matching L's on the false muzzle, or simply a sight blinder for proper pin alignment?
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Nick Bachtel

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2017, 08:15:20 PM »
I have a really special place in my heart for half-stock percussion guns. Especially after seeing all the original ohio guns at Marietta last weekend.

Inspiring, thanks.

Nick

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2017, 09:32:21 PM »
I believe the scheutzen matches in California, and probably other places as well, were a last ditch effort by the old gunsmiths to keep muzzleloaders going a little while longer. The breechloaders of the time were still in their infant years. The two camps were  in stiff competition, and neither one had a clear advantage. The highly specialized tooling required to build a high quality scheutzen muzzleloader would not be scrapped to embrace the new technology. But, sadly WWI ended all of that. The West Coast scheutzen clubs dried up over night.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Dphariss

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2017, 04:10:55 AM »
Charles Slotterbecks target rifles used a lock much like the lock in the above rifle, except it had a rounded rear profile. His locks were very high quality, as was his trigger assembly's. Sheutzen matches pretty much died here in California with the outbreak of WWI.
 I think Steven D. Hugh's built a couple of Slotterbeck rifle copies back when he was getting started. That might be where Steve Garbe got some of his inspiration, since I know they are friends.

  Hungry Horse

I would like to see a major revival of the Schuetzen matches strictly for muzzle loaders using long bullets.
100 and 200 meter offhand on the 25 ring target.Rice makes a barrel that is used by Schuetzen maker
Helmut Mohr in Germany in a 38 caliber with Pope style rifling that shoots like a 22.
The book by Hamilton& Rowe have a wide variety of these great rifles organized by region and is worth
looking at.These are simple rifles and many have no on board rib or loading rod which makes for an easier
build. Pecatonica has stocks for them on the Mohr pattern if anyone is interested.

Bob Roller

The rifle range at Rocker Montana has one of the few surviving Schuetzen Houses that is still in use.
Built by the Copper Kings of Butte. There are other "features" on the range, little log cabine that I am told had nothing to do with shooting...
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline rtp

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2017, 02:28:03 PM »
Daryl,

When I found this barrel years ago the false muzzle was not with it.   Pondering on how to best make one.  Has any one ever cast a lap to properly line them up?

Dan,
When Steve an I were talking about this he suggested sending the blank to you for inletting...I said $#*! Yes...your inletting is just perfect as is the the rest of the gun.  Glad I sent it to you guys rather than doing this one myself.  An honor to have it.

Offline T*O*F

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Re: California Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2017, 07:13:42 PM »
I own this original Schuetzen rifle with a rather unique history.

http://oldfoxtraders.com/burns/burns.htm

If anyone is interested in acquiring it, let me know and I will list it in the For Sale forum.
Dave Kanger

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