Old Douglas Barrel is it safe?

[Martin S.]

I am considering purchasing a rifle with a Douglas XX barrel.  Once upon a time, way back in college, I was a subscriber to the old Buckskin Report, and I remember a series of articles about 12L14 steel that Douglas used, and how it had blown up in someone's hand.

This led to Douglas quitting the black powder barrel business, and, eventually, the demise of the BR due to lawsuits, from what I can tell by google searches.  Now I wish I had my collection of magazines, but they got left behind in one of my Navy moves.

I have a Getz .40 barrel that I have been happy with, but now I learn that it is 12L14, but apparently manufactured differently than Douglas.  I have a gun on order that is a Hoyt barrel, and I have no idea what he uses.

My question is, and I don't want to start a huge argument, is buying a gun with an old Douglas 12L14 barrel a good idea?  Is it safe?

Would you buy such a rifle?  If I buy it, I will keep it for the rest of my life and pass it down to my kids.  If I blow myself up, it is one thing, but if I hurt one of my kids, I could not live with myself.

All opinions, pro or con, appreciated.

[oldtravler61]

Martin I have two Douglas barrels. One is unmarked 50 cal the other is 54 an marked. Both barrels we're made in the early seventies. The 54 is a great shooter. The 50 is just not in a gun as yet. The problem I was told was that the barrel that burst was either double loaded. Not sure if that is fact but research seems to point there. Myself I would not be concerned as long as proper loading steps are followed. Imho There are more people on here that will clarify what happened.

[EC121]

Years ago some fellows made a test barrel out of EMT conduit and tried to blow it up for a magazine article.  They finally had to triple load it and put two balls in it just to get it to swell.  I wouldn't be afraid of a properly built 12L14 barrel.

[Hungry Horse]

 I'd put that on my list of things to worry about, right after the sky is falling, the sky is falling. Anybodies barrel can blow up, if there is a loose nut behind the  Buttplate.
 I am currently building a rifle with a .45 cal. Douglas barrel that was salvaged from the local dump. It was thrown away by the relatives of an old fellow who was building a muzzleloader. It was never on a gun, but had a little surface rust from its short stay at the dump.
 If you really want to worry about something, worry about relatives, they're really dangerous.

       Hungry Horse

[Shreckmeister]

 If you really want to worry about something, worry about relatives, they're really dangerous.

       Hungry Horse

     Good one!

[mountainman70]

Lots of Douglas barrels here in Douglas' home town.I don't know how many I have,but all of em-cals 36 thru 50 have been used and enjoyed since late 70's,with proper care and loading of course.I imagine the Esteamed-pun intended-Robert Roller,our encyclopedia of all relevant muzzleloader knowledge,will chime in on this'n.
Best regards,Dave

[retired fella]

Been shooting Douglas for 40 years.  No problems and are shooters.  If you still have doubts PM me I'll give it a good home.

The testing previous as I heard the story was a guy and his attorney trying to litigate vs the Douglas people  and a third party evidently blew the whistle ending the suit.  Douglas decided it was not worth the hassle and closed the operation. 

[Willbarq]

I'd put that on my list of things to worry about, right after the sky is falling, the sky is falling. Anybodies barrel can blow up, if there is a loose nut behind the  Buttplate.
 I am currently building a rifle with a .45 cal. Douglas barrel that was salvaged from the local dump. It was thrown away by the relatives of an old fellow who was building a muzzleloader. It was never on a gun, but had a little surface rust from its short stay at the dump.
 If you really want to worry about something, worry about relatives, they're really dangerous.

       Hungry Horse

Amazing. Never find anything. How did you know about it?

[Mike Brooks]

I blew a Douglas barrel back in the dark ages. 1" X .50.  Of course if you powder patch and ball them, then powder again and short start a patched ball and not run it down to your first load most barrels probably would blow.......
 Never did find the top flat..... The short started ball was still in the barrel though.

[Hungry Horse]

Willbarq;

  A friend, that I had done some gun work for, worked at the dump sight. He actually went down to the pit, to look at a couple of old saddles that were just dropped off. They were U.S. Government McClellan saddles in usable shape. While there getting the saddles, he noticed some muzzleloader parts. There were a couple of barrels, some pretty boogered up sand cast brass parts, and a couple of old unused back action percussion locks. The 15/16"X44".45 cal. Barrel was too long, and too heavy, for him. So he gave it to me. The other barrel was a 7/8" .45 cal. 36" long, marked Dixie gun works. It had four lands, and grooves, with pretty deep rifling. The guy at the dump built a gun for his son on that barrel that was a real shooter. I've never seen another Dixie barrel like that one.

        Hungry Horse

[JTR]

I remember when Don Getz wrote here a couple years ago about their attempt to blow up a piece of one of their 12L14 barrels, by making a pipe bomb out of it.
And try as they might, they couldn’t blow it!

On the other hand, you have guys here today that caution against 12L14 barrels in the strongest terms.
They make it sound like the barrel Is going to blow for sure, and it’s just a matter of when.

I guess you have to pick your side, but if you think it’s possible that you might personally wonder if the barrel is going to blow up when you or one of your kids pull the trigger, I wouldn’t buy the rifle.

Personally I think 12L14 is fine when used with proper loads. After all the years of using this steel, they’re must be tens of thousands of these barrels in use, and seldom do you hear of one failing.

Short starting balls, or smokeless powder can/will/might blow about anything.

John

[Bob Roller]

Lots of Douglas barrels here in Douglas' home town.I don't know how many I have,but all of em-cals 36 thru 50 have been used and enjoyed since late 70's,with proper care and loading of course.I imagine the Esteamed-pun intended-Robert Roller,our encyclopedia of all relevant muzzleloader knowledge,will chime in on this'n.
Best regards,Dave

My opinion of 12L14 is that in its proper environment it is OK but that environment is screws. It only took ONE bad episode and a lawsuit to get Douglas out of the muzzle loader business,the straw that broke the camel's back. They were at that time quitting that part of the barrel business due to the junkyard attitude of the muzzle loading crowd anyway according to a former employee. Why use it when certified steels are available and this material will stand the abuse of a machine gun with jacketed bullets?? As has been mentioned on numerous occasions,why gamble with a possible problem? The processes used in making 12L14 ROUND so it can be used in collets has been explained by at least one qualified metallurgist and I won't repeat it here. Ed Rayl uses 8620 which while not being certified for gun barrels is stonger and machines easily with common tools. I have made breeches out of it and it can be safely color case hardened.
Green Mountain used 1137 modified for gun barrels. It was called 1137M and may still be. I inquired about it to a steel supplier and was told it could be modified at the mill for low pressure gun barrels or it could be also modified for truck axles so as to withstand tremendous twisting torque from a big diesel engine and a gear train.
Choices are what they are so that's about all I can add.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

Been shooting Douglas for 40 years.  No problems and are shooters.  If you still have doubts PM me I'll give it a good home.

The testing previous as I heard the story was a guy and his attorney trying to litigate vs the Douglas people  and a third party evidently blew the whistle ending the suit.  Douglas decided it was not worth the hassle and closed the operation.  

There WAS physical injury to a man's hand and the metallurgist that testified as  to the  undesireablity of leaded steels for gun barrels is a poster on this forum. Douglas's product liability paid off big. I know of NO steel mill that will recommend leaded steels for even black powder. Call some of them and see for yourself.
I have in years past.Douglas still makes,as far as I know a very high quality barrel blank in many center fire calibers and I have used them with complete confidence and superb accuracy.

Bob Roller

[Roger B]

Where Douglas got into trouble was cold drawing the barrels to octagon shape.  That process potentially caused micro cracks in the barrel that can grow over time and result in failure.
Mr. Kelly (if memory serves me) wrote a very erudite article on the dangers of using 12L14 in muzzleloader barrels and I am certain that his views on the subject were valid.  There really is no reason to use a 12L14 barrel when a similar unit made from better steel is available.  That being said, I own a number of old Douglas barrels and shoot them regularly without breaking out in a cold sweat.  I treat them with respect, and if one of them ever lets go, I'll bet that it will be because of operator error.  One way or the other, I will consider it my fault and no one else's.  I wish Douglas would get back into the ML barrel business using better steel, but I'm sure they won't.  What amazes me is that we don't read more contemporary accounts of blown barrels from the 1700-1800s when hand forged iron barrels were the technology of the day.  That brings up the question of which is really dangerous; 12L14 or skelp welded iron?
Roger B.

[Bob Roller]

Where Douglas got into trouble was cold drawing the barrels to octagon shape.  That process potentially caused micro cracks in the barrel that can grow over time and result in failure.
Mr. Kelly (if memory serves me) wrote a very erudite article on the dangers of using 12L14 in muzzleloader barrels and I am certain that his views on the subject were valid.  There really is no reason to use a 12L14 barrel when a similar unit made from better steel is available.  That being said, I own a number of old Douglas barrels and shoot them regularly without breaking out in a cold sweat.  I treat them with respect, and if one of them ever lets go, I'll bet that it will be because of operator error.  One way or the other, I will consider it my fault and no one else's.  I wish Douglas would get back into the ML barrel business using better steel, but I'm sure they won't.  What amazes me is that we don't read more contemporary accounts of blown barrels from the 1700-1800s when hand forged iron barrels were the technology of the day.  That brings up the question of which is really dangerous; 12L14 or skelp welded iron?
Roger B.

In the 17 and 1800's there weren't a bunch of knuckleheads pouring half a horn of powder down a barrel.
There has been for many years an urban legend (BS) that says "you can't get enough black powder in muzzle loader to blow it up".Some were dumb enough to believe it. My own grandfather born in 1873 said he saw several blow ups due to over loads.

Bob Roller

[oldtravler61]

 :)What it really boils down to Is You can't fix stupid. Get careless with anything an somebody gets hurt. Sad thing is. Some won't admit they goofed up!

[Mike Brooks]

Hard to buy a barrel that isn't 12L14. Colerain, Rice and Hoyt use it. Getz uses it and has a dash of unobtainium added to the formula......

[b bogart]

Hard to buy a barrel that isn't 12L14. Colerain, Rice and Hoyt use it. Getz uses it and has a dash of unobtainium added to the formula......

I wonder how Mr Getz keeps the business open with the unobtainium in those barrels? I have one that is unused as of yet. Must be rare, huh? Have Colerain's and Rice"s too, they don't look much different in a gun.

[Bob Roller]

Hard to buy a barrel that isn't 12L14. Colerain, Rice and Hoyt use it. Getz uses it and has a dash of unobtainium added to the formula......

I have talked to these men and they do not use 12L14 in their bullet gun barrels like used on a Rigby or some other long range gun.Rice is making 36 caliber bullet gun barrels for a German customer that says they perform like a 22. Sounds like fun to me.

Bob Roller

[Mike Brooks]

Hard to buy a barrel that isn't 12L14. Colerain, Rice and Hoyt use it. Getz uses it and has a dash of unobtainium added to the formula......

I have talked to these men and they do not use 12L14 in their bullet gun barrels like used on a Rigby or some other long range gun.Rice is making 36 caliber bullet gun barrels for a German customer that says they perform like a 22. Sounds like fun to me.

Bob Roller

I don't believe anybody sane uses 12L14 for bullet guns. I know I wouldn't and I ain't scared of much....

[Hungry Horse]

I suspect nearly all burst barrels start out the same way. "Somebody hold my beer, Y'All watch this".
 The old timers shot barrels their whole life that were made of wrought iron, with a forge welded seam, often with a pretty fair amount of impurities in the iron to boot. Folks today just don't take black powder seriously enough.

     Hungry Horse

[rich pierce]

Old timers probably didn't use short starters much.

[Martin S.]

Thanks for all the comments.

This is the rifle I was looking at, but I think I need a .62 for big game instead.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/487/1/AAP-364?PageSize=50

I am not sure how to make a link work on this forum, or if one is allowed.

Feel free to make it a link and explain how, if possible.

Thanks.

[rich pierce]

If you get a .62 you might want to get a comfortable shooting gun with a wide flat buttplate.

[oldtravler61]

Brown bear an moose 62 would be good. Don't take much to put the lights out on the rest. Unless yeah go to Africa. Then again file the front sight off. Won't hurt so much when it go up you know where.lol