The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection

[SR James]

Hi Phil.  I was hoping you'd chime in on this thread, given your knowledge of the topic.  My GRRW Leman is below.  After my initial post I ran across my invoice for this rifle.  It is dated February 1974.  The rifle in semi-finished kit cost $160.


Some closeups of the rifles shown in my original post.  Below is my recently acquired GRRW Hawken.  It was purchased from Track and is no doubt one of the two people mentioned having seen there recently.  Thanks to Bob and his friend Carl Walker, I know that it was made in February 1978 by Don McKee at GRRW.  It is the Bridger pattern.  The sights are not factory original.

The Sharon Rifle Barrel Co. rifle:

The Ozark Mtn. Arms Hawken:

The Santa Fe Hawken:

The Golden Age Arms parts set rifle:

The Uberti Kit Hawken:

The Pedersoli Rocky Mtn. Hawken:

The Uberti Kit Hawken is interesting to me because I was unaware Uberti had ever marketed this rifle.  I obtained it as an orphaned, partially assembled kit.  The lock is an L&R as all I received in the kit was the original lock plate and hammer, no internals.  The kit came with the original correct Uberti box which I still have.
To me it bears a strong resemblance to the currently produced Pedersoli Rocky Mtn. Hawken.  I know Pedersoli and Uberti have collaborated in the past, perhaps this is an example of such.

[Mike R]

thanks for showing all the 'Hawken' guns...an early love, though I don't own any now, having traded off my last one, a Sharon .50, a few months ago.  I fell in love with the GRRW Hawken when they first appeared, but never bought one--I made my first Hawken ~ 1981 using a 1 1/2" GRRW barrel in .58, a Long lock and set triggers [with a Hawken Shop hammer] and assorted parts and a relatively plain walnut stock.  It was a beast, and it may still be floating around in Colorado where I traded it in the late 80s for a flinter made by Keith Casteel...[I got the better of that deal].  the only marks on my old Hawken were initials MTR scrawled on the top barrel facet...in case anyone comes across it...Wish I had kept one of the Hawkens, but so it goes...one reason the GRRW guns were so desirable is that their barrels were first rate.  I still have a longrifle I made in 1978 using a 42" GRRW straight barrel in .45 that will cloverleaf holes at 50 yds with almost any reasonable load...

[SR James]

One of the other rifles in the collection is somewhat roughly built but nonetheless still has some charm.  The lock is a Russ Hamm and is so marked inside the plate.  I remember Russ Hamm Bedford, Maslin, and Gonter locks but not this one.  But based on the lock, I assuming the rifle was built in the 60s/70s.  The trigger/guard assembly is also different.  Note the two piece trigger plate, actually an extension to give the appearance of a longer plate.  This extension is pinned and brazed to the rear scroll of the trigger guard. The front extension is also brazed to the guard.  The set triggers themselves are like none I've seen.  It doesn't really show in the photograph but the front trigger is actually two pieces.  Any information on who made these parts would be appreciated.  I'm trying to pin down the time frame a little better.

[nosrettap1958]

That is a really fine collection!!
How does a Lyman Great Plains Rifle compare to your fine rifles?

Ron

The Lyman Great Plains rifle is a good solid hunting rifle built with that sole purpose in mind, but it is not a replica of a Hawken rifle but a more generic 'Plains' rifle. 

[Mick C]

What!!  No pictures of TC or CVA Hawkens!?....I jest of course.  But to all who have thus far posted, very interesting thread as I too was just getting into ML'ing at the time of GRRW.  Thanks for all the great pictures and info....Mick C

[Smoketown]

Phil,


I know this is an old thread but, here's another serial number for the Santa Fe Hawken list ... Where ever it may reside.

It's a Jeb Smith Commemorative.

No. 298 of 1000 on the tang.

845 on the hammer side of the barrel.
(Barrel, tang and stock all marked or stamped 845.)

AE proof mark.

Stamped 54 cal. I'm almost sure it takes a .520 ball as did others of the same vintage.

Western Arms Corp  Santa Fe N.M.

Tang, barrel, under rib and pipes are browned while the lock, and trigger bar appear to be color case hardened.

The entry thimble, hammer and trigger guard look 'fire blued'.

I got it with out the manual or a proper ramrod but, I think I still have the box ...


Oh, and this one is unfired ...


Cheers,
Smoketown

[Mtn Meek]

Thanks for the info on your Jedediah Smith Hawken, Smoketown.  Sounds like a nice one. 

From what I can tell, they made the full run of 1000 Jed Smith Commemorative Hawken rifles.  In addition, more than 3000 regular Santa Fe Hawken rifles were made and stamped "WESTERN ARMS CORP".

Other companies besides Western Arms Corp imported the Uberti Hawken, and the total number likely exceeded 10,000.

In the time since this post was started, I built a website on GRRW guns and vintage repro Hawken rifles.

You might find the section on the Western Arms/Uberti Hawken at the link below interesting.

http://grrw.org/uberti-santa-fe-hawken/

[nosrettap1958]

Great website Mtn Meek!!!

Interesting, but if you look under the heading 'Questions and Answers' the very first question the feller has a Green River with a Douglas barrel.  That's two that have said they have Douglas barrels on their Green Rivers.

[Mtn Meek]

Great website Mtn Meek!!!

Interesting, but if you look under the heading 'Questions and Answers' the very first question the feller has a Green River with a Douglas barrel.  That's two that have said they have Douglas barrels on their Green Rivers.

That's correct, Crawdad.  GRRW started making their own barrels in the first half of 1974.  Therefore, in the first two years of operation, GRRW purchased most of the barrels for their rifles from Douglas.  As the popularity of muzzleloading increased in the early 1970's, and particularly the increase in sales for GRRW, they found out that Douglas could not keep up with the demand.  GRRW set out to make as many of the component parts for their guns in-house as feasible and started up their barrel making operations using equipment they purchased from Bill Large.

With a few exceptions, the GRRW rifles that were made in 1972, 1973, and early part of 1974 have Douglas barrels.

[nosrettap1958]

Goes back to my old argument with my buddy who always insisted that the Green River is the most accurate of the bunch. Douglas barrels have always been highly touted for their accuracy.

Is there any connection at all between Bill Large and GR Douglas?

[Bob Roller]

Goes back to my old argument with my buddy who always insisted that the Green River is the most accurate of the bunch. Douglas barrels have always been highly touted for their accuracy.

Is there any connection at all between Bill Large and GR Douglas?

NONE at all. They knew each other but I never heard Bill say that he had talked
on the phone with him. I only met Mr.Douglas one time and that was in Morris Gun and Watch
Shop in Milton,WV. G.R.Douglas passed away in 1967. Bill passed away in 1985,23 Sept. to be
exact.Either barrel will shoot straighter that any of us can really take advantage of. Neither one
barrels for muzzle loaders from certified gun barrel steel. Douglas did and does make center fire
barrels from certified steels and maintain a very high degree of quality control.

Bob Roller

[fyrwokr]

I know this is an old thread. But dang this is some GREAT info and pictures !! Thanks guys

[Bob Roller]

Goes back to my old argument with my buddy who always insisted that the Green River is the most accurate of the bunch. Douglas barrels have always been highly touted for their accuracy.

Is there any connection at all between Bill Large and GR Douglas?

No connection at all, Bill made barrels and breeches and the Douglas
barrels usually had to be breeched by the buyer. One of the former
Douglas employees told me that when he charged $10 to install a common
unbolstered breech the was usually moaning and groaning about the pittance
charged for this service.
Bill Large incorporated the cost for making a milled,bench crafted breech into
the price of the barrel.

Bob Roller

[n stephenson]

It seems that nice Hawken rifles are like Lay`s  potato chips . You can`t stop with just one !!!

[nosrettap1958]

There are two very high grade Ozark Mountain Arms Hawken rifles here,

 https://www.armslist.com/posts/6362934/pittsburgh-pennsylvania-muzzle-loaders-for-sale--flintlock-percussion-

These are the Ozark Mountain and Green River Hawken rifles that I remember with their spectacular curly maple stocks. In other words, until these posts about Hawken rifles that were being offered back then I never saw either one that didn't have a beautiful piece of curly maple on it.

Possibly offering during that time various 'grades' of rifles? 

[Dave Patterson]

...In the time since this post was started, I built a website on GRRW guns and vintage repro Hawken rifles.

You might find the section on the Western Arms/Uberti Hawken at the link below interesting.

http://grrw.org/uberti-santa-fe-hawken/

"... Retails for $275."  Holy Toledo!  Then again, I was haulin' down a whopping $3.08/hr, free-jumping out of helicopters on US Forest Service fires when those were on the market, so... doubt the (then-)wife would have seen that as a smokin' deal.

Thanks for putting that site together, and posting the link:  fascinating reading!

[Mtn Meek]

Possibly offering during that time various 'grades' of rifles?

Yes, Ozark Mountain Arms and Green River Rifle Works offered various 'grades' of wood and other options.  GRRW fancy wood added up to 15% to the cost of the rifle based on invoices I've seen.  I'm not sure what OMA charged for fancy wood.

Early OMA Hawken rifles, when the company was just called Mountain Arms, were stocked in walnut, too.

[nosrettap1958]

Do we know for certain what barrels were used on the Ozark Mountain Arms Hawken? I always heard (rumors) that Ozark Mountain used Green Mountain barrels.

[fyrwokr]

Where does Browning Hawken rifle fit into these other makes ?

[Dan'l 1946]

I don't  believe Browning called their rifle a Hawken. I think they called it a mountain rifle and it may have been a copy of a rifle Jonathan Browning made.
                                                                       Dan

[Mtn Meek]

Do we know for certain what barrels were used on the Ozark Mountain Arms Hawken? I always heard (rumors) that Ozark Mountain used Green Mountain barrels.

Crawdad,

Yes, Ozark Mountain Arms used Green Mountain barrels on their Hawken rifles.  In the May-Jun 1980 issue of Muzzleloader magazine Mike Nesbitt wrote a short review of their Hawken rifle and mentions it had a Green Mountain barrel, a Ron Long lock, and L&R triggers.

Then in the Oct 1982 issue of Buckskin Report, Tanglefoot Berry wrote another review of the OMA Hawken and again stated it had a Green Mountain barrel, a Ron Long lock, and L&R triggers.

I found a third review of the rifle in the Jul-Aug 1983 issuer of Muzzleloader by Sam Green where he states the rifle had a Green Mountain barrel, an L&R lock, and L&R triggers.  Evidently by that time, OMA had switched from Ron Long's lock to L&R's.

[nosrettap1958]

Thanks Phil, always great information.

[hardscrabble]

I'm happy to stumble across this topic.  I learned more about these rifles in 20 minutes than I have since I banged together my only attempt at kit building, a TC Hawken, in 1976. That rifle is long gone, but I recently acquired a Carl Walker built (but not an official GRRW) Bridger rifle copy (Phil, you will recall our correspondence re this one) and the rifle below.

I hope someone can identify this rifle. It resembles the picture SR posted and labeled 'Santa Fe Hawken' in that the flats have overly large margins (they detract). The only marks on the rifle are the matching '3548' stamped lightly on the face of the tang above the hooked breech cut and on the barrel just ahead of the plug. The stock is  walnut, a Sile, which would make me think import, but there aren't any import marks anywhere. The lock is about what one would expect, appears to function fine (haven't fired it yet) and is unmarked.

The seller said the .58 barrel had been rifled in a gain twist by Bob Hoyt. This appears to be accurate, since the bore appears unfired and the grooves are round-bottomed.

Any information or speculation is welcome.

Thanks.

[Mtn Meek]

I hope someone can identify this rifle. It resembles the picture SR posted and labeled 'Santa Fe Hawken' in that the flats have overly large margins (they detract). The only marks on the rifle are the matching '3548' stamped lightly on the face of the tang above the hooked breech cut and on the barrel just ahead of the plug. The stock is  walnut, a Sile, which would make me think import, but there aren't any import marks anywhere.

Hello Cy,

The rifle you posted does appear to be a Uberti Santa Fe Hawken.  In addition to the wide lock panels, the curved front trigger and the tight rear scroll on the trigger guard are typical of the Santa Fe Hawken.



Uberti Santa Fe Hawken


I believe the lock is the same as the Santa Fe Hawken, too.  If you take yours out of the stock, compare the internal parts to the picture below.  The top and bottom locks are Uberti locks while the middle lock is a Cherry Corners lock which Uberti copied.



It is pretty common for people to "de-farb" Italian guns to remove the many stamps on the barrel, etc.  I think that's what's been done to your rifle.

They appear to have refinished the stock, but too bad they didn't rework the lock panels during the de-farb process.

[hardscrabble]

That has to be it, Phil. The hammer screw head is distinctive and a dead ringer for my rifle.  The lock internals look right and the sear spring has that bend to it.  It has this going for it, it weighs about half what that Bridger rifle weighs. 

Thanks!