Web Thickness Question

[Okefinokee Outlaw]

I'm building my first rifle from a blank.  I just successfully inlet the swamped barrel with hand tools.  I'm thinking a 3/16" web thickness at the breech.  Even though the muzzle diameter is a bit smaller, would I use the same 3/16" measurement from the bottom of the muzzle?  Would this not produce a tapered ramrod channel?  This will be an English influenced early Virginia rifle.  Thanks much.

[jerrywh]

 The ideal web thickness is 1/8". Don't try to follow the barrel swamp. The RR. channel is straight and does not follow the swamp of the barrel. The trick is to get the ramrod groove in the forearm perfectly straight and then use it as a guide for the drill. When using a swamped barrel the distance between the barrel and the bottom of the ramrod groove just in front of the entre thimble has to be calculated by measuring the barrel at that point. Allowing a little extra is better than too thin. Slender is beauty in a long rifle. Go slow and think your way through it.

[David Rase]

3/16" at the breech and muzzle is pretty standard.  When I first started out inletting barrels and drilling ramrod holes I used the 3/16" width.  This past year I have been using 5/32" for 3/8" ramrods and 1/8" for 5/16" ramrods.  Of course, I have my customers that want the web thicker at the muzzle and thinner at the breech. 
Jerry is correct not to try and follow the barrel swamp.  He is also right on the money that the drill goes where the ramrod groove guides it so it is imperative that the groove is laid out perfectly.  Go slow, clear chips and do all the other things that make drilling a hole accurate.
David

[Okefinokee Outlaw]

So to keep the hole parallel to the forearm, if 3/16 was needed at the breech, and the muzzle diameter is less, then a larger dimension would be needed at the muzzle?  This old man is confused.

[James Rogers]

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=24493.0

If following barrel contour, put a straight barrel in the swamped channel to flex the stock when drilling the rod hole.

[rich pierce]

Lay a swamped barrel on the bench. Now lay a straight edge under the barrel. Move the straightedge to the web thickness you want at the muzzle. Move the straightedge at the breech to the web thickness you want there. That straightedge represents where the ramrod groove will be. And where the top edge of the ramrod will be in the ramrod hole. Now make measurements from the top flat of the barrel to the straightedge at the muzzle and where the entry thimble will be. Use those to lay out your ramrod groove. The barrel being swamped has no effect. Treat it like a straight barrel. Just know you have to take measurements at the muzzle and the entry thimble and those will vary.

If you make a blueprint based on thd actual parts then these things are clear. 

[Okefinokee Outlaw]

Now I'm feeling really stupid; must be a mental block.  I'm still seeing a slanted groove, not parallel to the forearm,  entering the forearm if the same web dimension is used at the muzzle and breech as recommended in Gunsmith of Grenville County.  Perhaps one of you fine gents could scratch out a drawing so I could see what I'm missing.

[kaintuck]

Now I'm feeling really stupid; must be a mental block.  I'm still seeing a slanted groove, not parallel to the forearm,  entering the forearm if the same web dimension is used at the muzzle and breech as recommended in Gunsmith of Grenville County.  Perhaps one of you fine gents could scratch out a drawing so I could see what I'm missing.

SIMPLE METHOD......Measure the breach, add 3/16"....then use a right angle template, and draw a mark at that distance on the side of your blank....then 3/16" below your muzzle......now draw a line between those two marks......there's your bottom of the RR.....draw a second line 3/16" for a center line..........
that centerline is the saw line for the forearm.......then gouge out the RR trough, clear as mud?
look at some of those builds on this forum.....youll see how~
marc n tomtom

[Okefinokee Outlaw]

So when I draw a line between the lines, it becomes a little more than 3'16 at the muzzle and a little less than 3/16 at the breech, correct?

[rich pierce]

The web thickness at tge muzzle and breech are determined by YOU. They are whatever you set them to. The line representing the upper surface of the ramrod in the groove and in the ramrod hole is a straiggt line. The web becomes thicker where the barrel is thinner because the underside of the barrel arches up away from the ramrod groove. YOU determine the web thickness at breech and muzzle. The barrel profile determines the thickness in between. Have you layed your barrel on a table and lined up a long straightedge beneath it?  Better than us making a drawing.

[KLMoors]

By the way, if you are in need of a long straight edge -  go to Lowes and buy a sheetrock square. (also called a drywall T-square)  Drill out the rivets and you'll end up with two nice straight edges for very little money.

[flehto]

I prefer slightly less than 3/32" web at the breech and 5/32" at the muzzle.....these sizes are for both the Bucks County and Lancaster LRs...the only 2 styles I make. Dave Rase does an excellent job of satisfying these wbs dims and also his bbl inletting is perfect.....Fred

[Okefinokee Outlaw]

Okay, I lined everything up.  The breech is 1.12 across the flats.  The muzzle is .945.  If I use 3/16 at the breech, I arrive at approximately 15/64 at the muzzle.  This seems a bit thick at the muzzle.  I'm nervous about making the dimension at the breech too thin and screwing up.

[smallpatch]

I just posted a Little Lehigh that David Rase did a 1/16th web at the breech.  Webs can be quite thin, and quite usable with careful,layout.  The thinner the web, the slimmer the fore stock.
Not sure why you can't make it the web the same at the breech, AND at the muzzle.  I'm confused I guess.

[Okefinokee Outlaw]

I guess I'm totally confused.  Drawing on the side of the blank, with the barrel lined up and resting on the side of the blank, if I put a dot 3/16 below the bottom of the muzzle, and 3/16 below the bottom of the larger breech end, when the dots are connected it becomes a slanted line with reference to the center line of the barrel.

[Thom]

That is correct. That's just where it's supposed to be.

[rich pierce]

I guess I'm totally confused.  Drawing on the side of the blank, with the barrel lined up and resting on the side of the blank, if I put a dot 3/16 below the bottom of the muzzle, and 3/16 below the bottom of the larger breech end, when the dots are connected it becomes a slanted line with reference to the center line of the barrel.

You just had a pre conceived notion that the ramrod had to be parallel to the bore. That blocked your mind.

[kaintuck]

You just had a pre conceived notion that the ramrod had to be parallel to the bore. That blocked your mind.

ahhhh...........so grasshopper~listen to the zen masters....FORGET the centerline of the barrel.......it's the OUTside your playing with~~~~~3/8" below the muzzle and 3/8" below the breach is THE CENTERLINE of the RR//////!!!!

lay the barrel out on the table........lay a RR next to it.....3/16" from the barrel on BOTH ends.....see?
marc n tomtom

[Okefinokee Outlaw]

Well tonight I'll finally be able to sleep.  My false assumption that the ramrod groove had to be parallel to the bore caused all of my grief.  I owe all of you.  Thanks very much.

[Okefinokee Outlaw]

Well I drilled the 3/8" ramrod hole this evening.  I proceeded slowly with a brad point bit, withdrew every 1/2" or so, but I still wandered 1/16" towards the bottom of the stock at the breech, and a bit toward the side plate side.  Based on what I'm reading, 3/16" must be left below the ramrod hole at the breech end.  Might I be able to get away with 1/8" to make it slimmer?  The barrel is 1.125 at the breech.

[Rich]

I use 1/8 inch at the breech and 1/8 inch at the muzzle. It's easier for me to get a slender, non-slab sided, rifle without a thick web. The extra 1/16 makes a difference. With an 1/8 inch web, there is room for a 1/16th inch pin in a lug or staple that is 1/8th inch proud of the barrel. You do have to make sure the ram rod groove is absolutely straight.

[Okefinokee Outlaw]

The web is 3/16" at the muzzle.  When drilling, the drill wandered 1/16" toward the bottom of the stock, creating a 1/4" web at the breech.  I'm reading that there should be 3/16" of wood under the ramrod at the breech end.  Can I get away with 1/8" of wood under the ramrod at the breech, or will this cause some issues later in the build? 

[Mark Elliott]

I generally start with a 5/32" web at the muzzle and TRY to follow the center line of the bore to the breech; usually ending up at 1/8".   However, given that my ramrod holes usually drift down,  I frequently end up with more like 3/16" at the breech.    In some early Germanic guns, you may need 3/16" or more at the breech in order to be able to get the front lock bolt to clear the ramrod.   So,   my answer is that it depends on a lot of things.    Mainly,  it depends on what you are building.   Be guided by the originals.

As to the wood under the ramrod hole, I am satisfied with 1/16".   It is hard for it to be more than that at the rear entry because of the lift on the rear thimble tang.   If you managed to get the ramrod hole to run straight, then you might have 1/32" more at the breech.   If not,  then 1/16" is fine.  Your guard front extension will break into the ramrod hole and that is Ok. 

[flehto]

Seeing I prefer slightly less than 3/32" web at the breech {5/32" @ the muzzle} and can accommodate slightly less web at the breech, installing the rear bbl lug and front lock bolt requires some very accurate layouts and drilling  and some different ways to accomplish the 2 tasks

A #6-32 front lock bolt is used and a shallow groove has to be filed in the bbl for a 3/32" or thinner web. Pictured below is the bbl lug that accommodates the 3/32" or thinner web.

But...unless a very precise layout is made and the holes drilled at these locations, some complications will arise.  

Any other suggestions or different ways of accommodating these thin webs would be appreciated......Fred

[Jim Kibler]

As has been mentioned, the ramrod groove doesn't need to be straight, or parallel to the bore.  It can be often an advantage for the groove and hole to be bowed or at the least not parallel to the bore.  These practices were typically used on original work.