Author Topic: What causes this?  (Read 11266 times)

Southernstyle

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What causes this?
« on: October 23, 2015, 06:50:34 AM »
HI,
I have a 44 inch 50 caliber Colrain barrel on a flint rifle that I built. I am starting to shoot it and get it settled in to a load. I am shooting 65 grains of Goex 3F, and I am using a 490 RB. For a patch I started with some prelubed CVA patches I picked up. I also have tried Thompson Center precut dry spit patches. These I think are about .016 inch thick. The gun is fairly accurate but the fowling is terrible. One or two shots is all I can shoot with out cleaning the bore. It's so fowled that I cant get another load down it.  I read here of people shooting 50-100 rounds and I don't know what my problem is. I used to shoot a 36 years ago and I could shoot all day and never clean the bore on it. But back then I thought that must be normal.  My patches seem pretty tight to load and I need a short starter to get it done. They look pretty good after being fired. They are fuzzed around the edge but no holes. Any Ideas how I can reduce the fowling so I can shoot more and clean less? Thanks for your help. 

Offline Bill Paton

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2015, 07:30:11 AM »
Long barrels burned poor powder well. Short barrels didn’t. Long barrels may foul with good powder. The powder burns up in the barrel and fouls it. Try re-enactor’s powder in your long barrel and see how it shoots. It probably is closer to the poor 18th C American powder than the better stuff you are fouling with.

Bill Paton
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hammer

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2015, 08:43:54 AM »
Sounds as if the powder isn't burning efficiently.  Which it will not do unless the patch/ball combination is a tight fit in the barrel and is right down on the powder with the patch is filling the grooves.    I also suspect the pre-lubed patches are unsuitable for cleaning the bore as you shoot.
First ensure the patch/ball combination is a tight fit, I suspect your precut ones are too thin and you will need something like pillow ticking to fill the rifling with that sized ball.    Use a wet lube on the patches, such as Neatsfoot Oil - not so they are dripping but more than dampened.    The wet patch will better clean the fouling on the way down and on the way out.
Good luck.

Offline smallpatch

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2015, 08:52:21 AM »
A fouled barrel is a function of load and lube.  Has nothing to do with the length of the barrel.

You need a tighter patch and ball combo, and a liquid lube.
For powder to burn efficiently, your patch and ball must seal,the bore, with no blow by in the grooves.  To prove it to your self, fire a bare ball, then see if you can even put one more down.

Pick up a few fired patches, if you can find them.  They will be shredded.
With the proper load and lube.......you should be able to shoot all day.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Gene Carrell

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2015, 12:46:35 PM »
Most prelubed patches I have tried were only about .015" thick. Lately, I have used .018 to .022 patching, with the thicker in round (radius) bottom grooved bbls. and Mr. Flintlocks lube for range work in 25 to 62cal rifles with great success and no cleaning until the day is done. I agree that it is necessary to load tight and use a quality lube.
Gene

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2015, 02:14:11 PM »
Round grove rifling will probably need a thicker patch to fill the groves and as has already been said, its a new gun and you should try different load (powder,patch,ball) combinations to work up to your best grouping and clean shooting load.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2015, 03:41:37 PM »
I have never had any success with " pre-lubed" patches.  The .50 cal Colerain barrel has a groove depth of .016    , so you can see that your patches are too thin with that ball size.   If you are having trouble loading , I would check the crown. If you follow the instructions/suggestions given by Daryl you'll have an easier time loading a larger ball , although you'll still need a short starter.
Switch to a liquid lube, and you'll be happier.

Offline axelp

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2015, 05:33:00 PM »
different humidity readings will cause more or less fowling. Sounds like your lube is not doing the job. If you use just plain spit and get the patch fully wet do you still have too much fouling? Try a wetter lube.

K
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Offline Bill Ladd

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2015, 05:53:02 PM »
I'm in a high humidity area of the country.  I use spit (quite wet) and tight-fitting pillow ticking cut at the muzzle.  Fouling is a non-issue now.

Southernstyle

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2015, 09:06:31 PM »
Thanks everyone, tighter load and different lube trials. Raining today but I am on it.

I appreciate the help!

Offline conquerordie

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2015, 11:03:32 PM »
I started using the washerfluid/neatsfoot oil combo for patch lube and it works extremely well. I've never shot more than say 30 shots in a session, but they were all loading as nice as the first with no fouling. Cleaning afterwards was a cinch.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2015, 11:55:20 PM »
I think that that is the key:  if you have very little fouling when you clean the rifle at the end of the day, you are on the right track. If not, you need a thicker patch and or more and better lube.  Dead soft lead is also a key to easy loading, together with the right crown on the muzzle.
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Offline hanshi

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2015, 01:31:13 AM »
Only a tight prb combination will keep a bore clean enough to shoot and shoot and shoot all afternoon.  The lube is very important, too.  I use Hoppes BP Lube (liquid) and the thickest patch that I can get down the barrel without breaking the rod.  Specifically I shoot a ticking patch .024" thick lubed with Hoppes (spit works well as does most water based lubes).
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Offline Squirrel pizza

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2015, 01:38:37 AM »
There are as many solutions to your problem as there are shooters. any combination might solve your problem. But at the risk of sounding like a pitch man I sing the praises of Bore Butter. Both for cleaning,(especially for cleaning), and as a patch lube. The benefit of using it as a patch lube is that you are cleaning automatically between shots. I would recommend that if you go heavy on the butter you carry some pipe cleaners with you to clean out the touch hole. If you're just starting to get the load make sure you lap the barrel first. you said there were no cut patches, but just to be sure a little lapping never hurt. Trust me on this one. Give Bore Butter a try. Good luck and may the force be with you.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2015, 01:47:58 AM by Squirrel pizza »

Offline Daryl

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2015, 01:49:32 AM »
You could try bore butter, or just simple lip balm - same thing apparently, without the wintergreen smell.
Daryl

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Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2015, 03:28:06 AM »
try spit
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Offline JBJ

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2015, 04:14:55 PM »
Udder Balm and Udderly Smooth can also be put into service as a lube/cleaner. Have been meaning to try orange hand cleaner (without pumice!) from the autoparts store -  would bet a large Coke that it would work great.
J.B.

Offline Daryl

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2015, 09:42:16 PM »
We were in a small general store up the Alaska highway and complaining about dry-checked fingers, one late fall day. The buxom young lady behind the counter said "I use Udder Balm ". We all looked at her - and she declared in a raised voice "ON MY HANDS"!   :D
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 04:00:59 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline oldtravler61

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2015, 04:11:39 PM »
For the last forty years. Have used Crisco oil. Warm a little in a pan,put in my patches put them on a paper towel pad the excess off. String the patches an tie em on my possible bag an good to go. The thickness depends ( to me ) on ball an your barrels rifling.But am no expert.

Offline SCLoyalist

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2015, 05:13:03 PM »
Some folks achieve shooting all day without cleaning between shots by using a very damp patch.  Shoot, put powder down the bore, then ball with the saturated patch.  The wet patch pushes fouling from the last shot down the bore atop the new powder charge where it gets blown out when you fire.  Then, more powder, another wet patched ball which pushes the newest fouling down, shoot, etc etc.   That should work regardless of how tight or loose the ball patch combo is, but it may not give you acceptable group sizes.

In experimenting with Dutch Schoulz's 'dry lube' patch system a few years ago, it became obvious to me that choice of lube plays a bigger factor in reducing group size than I would have imagined.    You just have to experiment with different patch/ball/lube combinations until you find one you're content with in terms of ease of loading, frequency of wiping, group size, and ease of cleanup at the end of the day.

Offline Daryl

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2015, 04:03:38 AM »
Some of us also have shoot all day, no wiping needed (even with the .32), using Mink Oil or Neetsfoot Oil for lube.
The last shot of the day, maybe 30 or 90, loads as easily or in the case of Mink Oil even easier than the first.
I assume that is because the bore is not oily like it is after shooting mink oil, due to it being dry form storage.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Fowlerman

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2015, 06:55:30 AM »
I know what's going on.
You are using greasy patches that's the problem use spit patches
The grease will coat the inside and black powder has charcoal in it
Spit will not foul plus if you have a 50 cal use a patch that will add up to 50
So for example if you use a 490 ball use a 10 thousands patch
Hope this helps

Jamie

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2015, 07:17:00 AM »
My experience with fouling:

I am still exploring my new-ish 50 cal flinter.  I recently went to a thinner patch because the ones I was using, with fairly good results, were hard to load - too hard, I thought.  After a couple of range sessions suffering from lost accuracy and increased fouling, I went back to the hard to load patches.  For both patches I lubed by putting them in my mouth, but when I went back to the thicker patch I left the patch wetter before loading.

The fouling went away - the 40th shot loaded as easily as the first with no wiping.  I believe accuracy was better but it's hard to be sure as today was a turkey shoot with lots of shooting at gongs instead of paper.  Also I was shooting offhand instead of from the bench, and I'm not very good yet offhand.  However, I'm sticking with the thicker patch.

Jamie

Offline smallpatch

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2015, 08:51:01 PM »
Fowlerman,

In theory.... Never gonna happen. First of all, your math is wrong.  .490+.010+.010= .051.  Secondly, you have not allowed for the depth of the rifling.
In order to have a good seal, you must do both.

Like my previous post.... Tighter patch/ball combo, liquid lube. 
Maybe .495 ball, .020 patch, spit or moose milk= shoot all day.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: What causes this?
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2015, 09:18:57 PM »
There's lots to think about in this thread.  Commercial precut patches, at least those I have seen, seem to be cut from new material with the sizing still in it.  The patches are hard and stiff.  Pre-lubed precut commercial patches use ineffective and expensive lubricant in insufficient quantity, and the result is a fouled bore in only a couple of shots.  Get completely away from commercial products, with a couple of exceptions.  There are two commercial lubricants of which I am aware, that work well...Lehigh Valley Lube and Mr. Flintlock.  More about these later.
But the patch material needs to be soft, flexible, and ABSORBANT!  Fabric stores sell a variety of cloth that makes into wonderfully efficient patch material.  These include various denims, cotton duck, cotton twill, and cotton drill.  PURE COTTON - no synthetics whatsoever!  Take your micrometer or Vernier's calipers to the store and measure the material...buy cloth that measures .018" minimum and perhaps .025" maximum, and anything between.  Around .020" is about perfect in most rifles, plus or minus a few thou.  Take the material home and wash it as is twice, to remove the fouling.  Hang it to dry.  Now, cut your patches or tear your strips if you cut on the muzzle.
If you use cut patches, and cut square is just as good as round, you can pre-lubricate them in a Sucrets tin, ready for your day's shooting.  Put in as many patches as you think you might use, pour in your liquid lube - either of the two mentioned above, or your own concoction, and soak those patches thoroughly.  Pour the excess liquid back into the bottle, you can even sqeeze out a bit of the liquid too, but don't squeeze too much out.  Those patches should be soaked to the point of dripping.  Don't worry about soaking your powder with lube...the patch gets stretches and compressed during the loading process and excess lube is squeezed out there.  But don't be cheap with the lube.  For hunting, mink oil or Neatsfoot oil works perfectly.
And your balls should be cast from the softest lead you can find.  Wheel weights and battery terminals are a hard alloy of lead and are unsuitable for regular target shooting.  And that may be a little confusing, because you guys south of the 49th have access to pure lead wheel weights...I wouldn't have believed it if one of you hadn't sent me some to make a point.  Ours in the Great White North are hard alloyed.  But the point is, your lead must be dead soft.
And finally, the crown of the muzzle is super important.  Almost all factory crowns are cut either on a lathe or with a jig and are too abrupt.  The patch gets stretched too thin on loading over this crown, and the patch cuts or is torn...accuracy is in the toilet before you start.  Use your thumb and some abrasive cloth or paper in the 220 - 400 grit area to polish the crown's sharp corners.  Just push your abrasive covered thumb into the muzzle and rotate your wrist and/or the barrel, pressing firmly, about thirty times.  Then turn the rifle around 180 degrees, and repeat, to make sure the crown gets even attention all the way around.  This one thing makes an enormous impact on how easily your rifle will load.
I still use a short starter, with about a 7" rod, to start the ball flush with the muzzle, and then send it down the bore, the length of the rod.  This makes loading fast, painless, easy and consistent.  Once the ball is started, it will go down very easily with a hickory rod.  And I agree with Dane...barrel length has nothing to do with fouling accumulation.  My 31" Jaeger and my 48" longrifle barrels both load equally as easily as the other....all day long!
D. Taylor Sapergia
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