Patch Box Latch Mechanism

[JCurtiss]

Hey there forum colleagues,

I was thinking of a way to latch and unlatch a patch box lid. It seems there is no accepted standard for this mechanism, so I sketched an idea.

Essentially I would use an 1/8" brass rod mounted in the stock and a simple hook mounted on the patch box lid.  To release the lid, simply push the rod via a 3/8" diameter short wood plug located in the bottom of the stock.  This action moves the 1/8" diameter rod away from the hook on the lid, thereby releasing the lid.  To latch the lid, you would first push in on the rod, then close the lid and finally release the rod to catch the hook on the lid, thereby securing it closed.   

Does anyone see any flaws in this idea? Perhaps they didn't have coil springs in the 1700s, so this mechanism would be considered out-of-period?   

Jason       

[smylee grouch]

It might be ok but I would do a more traditional latch. Push rod from the top against a spring that hooks into a notch in a stud that comes down from the lid.

[Lucky R A]

    You are showing a Lehigh Valley style patchbox, so why not use the traditional long bar through the butt plate latch frequently used in the valley.  It is quite simple two pieces and very effective...trying to reinvent the wheel seldom produces better results...
Ron

[JCurtiss]

   ..trying to reinvent the wheel seldom produces better results...
Ron

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here; instead I'm trying to come up with a visually unobtrusive latch mechanism.  The idea behind a button at the toe-plate is that it would be less conspicuous than a button on the butt plate.

However, I would be grateful if you would post a sketch/diagram/picture of the invented "wheel".

Jason

[PPatch]

How do you intend to regulate the spring? In your sketch I don't see a "stop" mechanism for keeping the spring and wooden plug at whatever distance you intend for it to protrude while "at rest." Also, how does the wood plug attach to the spring? Not criticizing, just wondering.

dave

[JCurtiss]

Hi Dave,

To keep tension in the spring and to provide a "stop" the 1/8" brass rod is hooked around the 1/8" wood dowel shown in the top of the sketch. The hooked rod is first inserted into the gouged out area of the stock and then the 1/8" dowel is inserted to trap it in place. 

The wood plug could be drilled to accept the 1/8" brass rod and then glued with epoxy, or to be period correct, hide glue. Or the wood plug and rod could be threaded.

Again, I welcome other ideas, especially if they are accompanied with sketches or drawings.
 
Jason

[louieparker]

Jason
If its inconspicuous you are wanting, why not make a hidden release. There are many ways to do this. I have a rifle that has a hidden release under the rear end of the box's upper side plate. Press the upper end of the plate and the box opens.
I recently saw two rifles with very interesting concealed latches. The neatest was  hidden in the molding on the butt plate heal. A small section could be depressed and the box opened. It was hidden by lines being cut across the molding. I have seen them released by pushing a segment of the hinge to the rear. On a Lehigh rifle by pressing the front end of the toe plate. Some have an extra screw head in the butt plate heal that is a release. Also a more complicated means where a small section had been added to the rear of the trigger guard. Don't recall if you pressed down or to the rear. But it opened the box .  Think about it. You might just reinvent the wheel..

[JTR]

I've posted this picture before but here it is again, as it shows the latch works pretty clearly. Basically a push rod and a combo spring/latch. The only other piece would be the latch attached to the patchbox lid.
This one has the release button in the butt plate, but works the same way if you put the release button in the toe plate.



John

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I like Louis' idea for a hidden release.  Here's the one I used on my Kuntz effort, which is a Lehigh rifle BTW.

[JCurtiss]

Wow, thank you for the great picture and sketch!

Those mechanisms certainly give me some more ideas.

Also, I now think I have the wrong patch box lid; I'm supposed to be making a Verner rifle.

[louieparker]

Jason
If you want to get real carried away, there's a Fredrick Sell rifle there with what appears to be two ways of releasing the lid. One does nothing and the other pricks your finger. The actual release is hidden in the butt plate molding on the comb as I said in the earlier post.

[Dennis Glazener]

You could use your drawing but modify the push rod so as to not have a head. Let the end near the latch rest against a flat spring and the other end to be hidden under a thin metal toe plate. No slack so that when you press on the toe plate it pushes the flat spring/latch so as to release the door of the patch box. I don't have a photo but I built a VA rifle using this type release and it works great. I own the original it was copied from and it works perfectly even after over 200 years.
Dennis

Sorry this photo of the toe plate is all I have, nothing to show the rest of it.

[mark esterly]

saw a verner where the release was a screw in the patchbox side panel.   very clever

[JCurtiss]

saw a verner where the release was a screw in the patchbox side panel.   very clever

Now that is clever!

I'm surprised that there's enough deflection in the toe-plate to actuate the mechanism.  But I suppose you could fine tune the latch such that very little movement is required for unlatching, similar to the catch on a mouse trap so to speak.

Jason

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I think Melchoir Fordeney (sp?) of Lancaster Co., and Andrew Verner, Buck's Co., used similar devices as Dennis'.

[bob in the woods]

I wouldn't use a wooden rod. I predict binding issues due to dimensional changes and the inevitable friction . There are examples of the toe plate release as well as others in Peter Alexander's book.

[Mark Elliott]

You could use your drawing but modify the push rod so as to not have a head. Let the end near the latch rest against a flat spring and the other end to be hidden under a thin metal toe plate. No slack so that when you press on the toe plate it pushes the flat spring/latch so as to release the door of the patch box. I don't have a photo but I built a VA rifle using this type release and it works great. I own the original it was copied from and it works perfectly even after over 200 years.
Dennis

Sorry this photo of the toe plate is all I have, nothing to show the rest of it.

Inspired by this rifle,  I have tried this type of release several times.    In my experience, it has one big problem;  it takes a year to get the pushrod length just right so that it works year round.   What I have switched to instead on southern guns with a bottom button is to cut a 3/16" high button off a 1/4" rod and riveting (nail through the middle of the button and spring) it to a piece of spring steel.   The button goes through a hole in the middle of the toe plate and the spring steel acts as the stop and the return spring.   I notch the other end of the spring to go around the rear toe plate screw and it is held in place by that screw and the toe plate.   The button is big enough that it doesn't hurt to press it and it has enough travel to allow enough slack in the pushrod to work year round.   

[Mark Elliott]

I've posted this picture before but here it is again, as it shows the latch works pretty clearly. Basically a push rod and a combo spring/latch. The only other piece would be the latch attached to the patchbox lid.
This one has the release button in the butt plate, but works the same way if you put the release button in the toe plate.



John

I generally use an arrangement like this with a "V" spring similar to the one shown, but made out of 1/32" spring steel.  I use 1/8" music wire as a pushrod and don't need any type of attachment to the latch/spring as long as my hole for the pushrod is on target.   in this example,  the nail holds the pushrod in place as the builder just cut a channel for the pushrod with a chisel.   I drill a small hole for mine that usually doesn't break through the butt.

[mark esterly]

the gentleman that built that verner had a lot of fun with me trying to figure it out even after he had shown me which screw.  i had a laugh too

[Lucky R A]

   Please,  there are two signed Verner rifles known, and both use the typical lollipop type toe plate opening mechanism as on most classic Bucks Co. rifles.   Examine "the" Verner in Dave Hanson's book, he also owns the rifle.  You will not find any screws in the surround of the patchbox that are used to open the box.  Mark, the rifle you describe may be an interpretation of a Bucks Co. style rifle, but is an anomaly, and surely not a Verner or a faithful copy of the original.   Sorry to point this out again, but when we start accepting variations, we lose track of what is true and correct.   Verner is a specific maker, Bucks Co. is a school of guns with architectural similarities related to a specific geographic area and time period.  Folks are free to build what suits them, but should attempt to reference them as correctly as possible to avoid confusion of those just learning the various styles and schools.  The curmudgeon has spoken--Now get off my lawn!

[JTR]

Mark, Obviously, the nail isn't original equipment. And there might or might not have been wood around the hole originally, but hard to tell after 200 + years.

None the less, I just thought it showed the latch works of an original Lancaster rifle pretty well and thought it might be of some help to the guy asking the question, as opposed to some modern interpretation.

But since the question turns out to be regarding Verner, it's all a moot point anyway.
Sorry for the interruption,
John

[JCurtiss]

But since the question turns out to be regarding Verner, it's all a moot point anyway.

Well, it may be moot with respect to a Verner, but it's certainly interesting to see the innards of a 200-year-old patch box locking mechanism. 

Thank you for sharing and if you have anymore, please post them.

Jason

[flehto]

Don't think the release pictured below is HC, but it certainly is easy to make, The button is a modified wood screw w/ the slot filed off.  Using this button allows for a right angle hole in the BPlate return and just a plain length of rod. The catch spring is nothing new......Fred