Author Topic: regulated screws  (Read 12433 times)

Offline snapper

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regulated screws
« on: October 27, 2015, 05:35:18 AM »
Seems like contemporary flintlock builders do not regulate the screws to be slotted in the same direction.   Were original flintlocks commonly built with regulated screws?  Or not

thanks

fleener
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2015, 05:47:54 AM »
I have seen rifles that a conscious effort almost had to have been made to index the screw slots in a certain way but I have also seen guns that were not. Some people use the word always and never too much when they discuss the old guns and gunmakers.

Offline Stophel

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2015, 06:08:17 AM »
Old guns often (not always) had screw slots line up.  I used to never bother with it, but now I simply cannot stand to see the breech tang or buttplate screw not in line with the barrel!
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Offline davec2

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2015, 07:45:52 AM »
Well, I don't really know my elbow from a hot rock about regulating screws, but I can't imagine a colonial gunsmith building guns "in a workman like manner" spending the time to, pardon the pun, screw around trying to line up screw slots.  Perhaps a gunsmith working for royalty in Europe....but not a man building working guns for the frontier.  Just my thought.
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hammer

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2015, 10:11:41 AM »
Dave, have yet to see a rifle or shotgun made over this side of the pond that did not have lined up screw slots.   For any customer.    Filing down the head and making the slot would have been the last part of the fitting of each screw - the slot had to be cut anyway so no extra work to line them up.   And might include, for flush headed screws, first peening the heads into the countersink before the filing and cutting.   Still, no time at all for a skilled craftsman.  Then there is the overall look of the finished product and also pride in his profession and of his long apprenticeship. 
Could the mixed examples over your side be the result of disassembly, reassembly over time, with added wood shrinkage now leaving some misaligned?

Offline James Rogers

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2015, 01:43:12 PM »
Per my friend, Jim Hash it is fairly easy as well as practical if you make your own screws. Use a sacrificial slot on a taller head while building then file down, slot and harden.

Offline James Rogers

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2015, 01:49:35 PM »
Just an interesting observation. In Keith Neal's books his fine guns do not have the slots lined up. The same guns when they were auctioned by Christies, etc. were in finest formation, all in line heading to the muzzle : )
Not really sure if it was a consideration in the 18th century colonial gun shop. We see many changes come about even in England in the 19th century that were obviously not a concern prior.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2015, 02:16:58 PM »
Screw slots? I take pills so I don't have to worry about that sort of stuff. ;)
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Online Pete G.

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2015, 03:08:45 PM »
If you will examine the many photos available you will find very few, if any historical guns where the screws were lined up. Some screws, such as the tang screw could have been removed and replaced over the years and no longer line up, but generally patchbox and buttplate screws remain as built.
 Personally, I regulate the buttplate screws, but let the patchbox screws fall where they may.

Online smart dog

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2015, 03:59:56 PM »
Hi Snapper,
I have a fine 1760-1770s original English fowler sitting in my lap as I write and it does not have a single screw head lining up.  And I know that at least the forward lock screw was made that way because it has a groove in it on one side to clear the ramrod.
It is probably a waste of time to align screw slots because as the wood dries and shrinks, or compresses over the years with use, those meticulously cut slots are going to misalign eventually.

dave
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Offline grabenkater

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2015, 04:04:43 PM »
I got to study an original late 16th or very early 17th century matchlock in Switzerland. One of the things that really stood out to me was the use of + shaped screw slots. I honestly thought at first that someone had replaced all of the screws with modern Phillips head screws, at least until I got to look at it much closer and realized that they were cut across the entire width of the screw head. Each of the screws were aligned as + from muzzle to butt. Now, I have no idea if these were in the same position since it had been stored in the Zueghaus or not. 
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Offline flehto

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2015, 04:05:58 PM »
If a single screw such as a tang screw is close to lining up, I'll take the time to  regulate it....but, if it's not already close, won't bother.  A group of screws as in a Pbox takes too long to regulate, so won't do it.  So normally, my screw slots go every which way.

At even 3 feet away, who's to know or care?.....Fred


Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2015, 05:40:17 PM »
For what its worth,  Wallace Gusler told me no.   Who am I to contradict him.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2015, 05:51:17 PM »
Old guns over time have experienced wood shrinkage, and dis-assembly for cleaning and repairs. I don't believe there is any way to know how the slots were positioned when they were built. How can we know today whether there was any consideration or not given to the matter, unless we discover it someday in a gunmaker's notebook.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 05:52:20 PM by Acer Saccharum »
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2015, 06:00:35 PM »
For what its worth,  Wallace Gusler told me no.   Who am I to contradict him.
Be brave. I contradict everybody. Question everything, conspiracies abound. The truth is out there..... ;)
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2015, 06:15:57 PM »
The truth is out there..... ;)

That's good to know.


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Offline Robby

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2015, 06:38:51 PM »
In NY, screws, like everything else are regulated.
Robin
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2015, 07:05:52 PM »
It may be that this concept of regulating screws came from the cartridge era of double guns from Europe, and America.  In this case, where steel is fitted to steel, such as the trigger plate into the receiver, it is a simple process to regulate the slot of the screw, as steel on steel changes little over time.  Likewise, the butt plate rarely if ever is removed, so those two screws having aligned slots is also no issue.  But on a longrifle - I doubt it was a consideration.
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Online smart dog

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2015, 07:20:47 PM »
For what its worth,  Wallace Gusler told me no.   Who am I to contradict him.
Be brave. I contradict everybody. Question everything, conspiracies abound. The truth is out there..... ;)
Mike,
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2015, 07:31:19 PM »
 In General no. Since probably all the screws have been turns since then there is no definite way of knowing. However I suspect they weren't much different than we are today. Some did bit most didn't. Guns for the king probably were. Guns on the frontier I don't think so. Logic applies.
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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2015, 07:54:45 PM »
 On tang,sideplate and patchbox screws I index them by counter sinking a little at a time while the screws are proud. I then file them flush or convex till they look right. I agree this probably won't last.
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Offline snapper

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2015, 12:52:13 AM »
My 151 year old rigby rifle has all of the screws regulated, including the escutcheon screws.  The top butt plate screw was out of alignment, but my friend Jim W. took care of that and it is now regulated.

Like our friend from across the pond indicated the Irish and English guns have regulated screws.



Fleener
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Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2015, 02:55:52 AM »
Be brave. I contradict everybody. Question everything, conspiracies abound. The truth is out there..... ;)



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Online smart dog

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2015, 03:12:12 AM »
My 151 year old rigby rifle has all of the screws regulated, including the escutcheon screws.  The top butt plate screw was out of alignment, but my friend Jim W. took care of that and it is now regulated.

Like our friend from across the pond indicated the Irish and English guns have regulated screws.



Fleener

Hi Snapper,
Then why does my original 1760-1770s English fowler not have regulated screws?  It is because, that detail may have become important on higher-end English guns during the mid to late 19th century but was not very important during earlier periods.  If you look through Neal and Back's book (Great British Gunmakers 1740-1790) you will not find a single high-end or average gun with side lock screws lined up with the barrel.  The only screw they seem to have cared about was the barrel tang bolt.

dave
« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 03:29:32 AM by smart dog »
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Offline snapper

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Re: regulated screws
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2015, 04:33:31 AM »
Dave

I was not trying to imply that all English guns had regulated screws.  Just replying that there are older original guns that have regulated screws.   I don't think that gun makers did not regulate their screws thinking in 100 or more years that they would not line up.

I do think that it might simply be a detail in the earlier times they did not simply worry about it or even cared about.

In some guns I look for regulated screws as a matter of fine detail and others like a flintlock it is something that I don't consider as normal.

Fleener


My 151 year old rigby rifle has all of the screws regulated, including the escutcheon screws.  The top butt plate screw was out of alignment, but my friend Jim W. took care of that and it is now regulated.

Like our friend from across the pond indicated the Irish and English guns have regulated screws.



Fleener

Hi Snapper,
Then why does my original 1760-1770s English fowler not have regulated screws?  It is because, that detail may have become important on higher-end English guns during the mid to late 19th century but was not very important during earlier periods.  If you look through Neal and Back's book (Great British Gunmakers 1740-1790) you will not find a single high-end or average gun with side lock screws lined up with the barrel.  The only screw they seem to have cared about was the barrel tang bolt.

dave
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill