flash no bang

[pd230soi]

Good day,
  I am in need of some assistance.

I have built two flintlocks from Track of the Wolf parts and am enjoying them both.  They are for my young sons when they get a bit older.  In the meanwhile I am using them for some range fun and I hope some meat gathering.

Both rifles are .54 cal using Siler deluxe locks, both rifle spark very well.  In addition I am using whatever flints I got with the kits.  I am using Swiss Null B for priming and Swiss FFG for the main charge.  I am currently testing out a hunting load using a .530 round ball over a .010 (.50-.59 cal) patch, a dab of wonderlube and 65 of the FFG.

I am getting “no fires” in both rifles.  I cannot call them hang fires as they never go off, and misfire always bothers me because, well they never go off…

Procedure - I load the rifle, powder, patch, ball…..  fill the flash pan to just under the flash hole, and squeeze the trigger. I may flinch a little as I am getting used to the flash.  But they shoot very nice out to 75 yards. I then wipe the bore with dry patches, sometime two or maybe three if it still seems really dirty.  They fire well until I have about 7-10 shots into them.  Then I get a flash and no bang.

I poke at the flash hole with a sewing pin stolen from my wife and once in a while after repriming I can get it to fire and then they quit.  Twice I have had to leave the rifles pointed at a berm, waited an hour, then carried them home where I unbreeched them to get the charge out.  My bullet puller wouldn’t pull the ball.

What the heck am I doing wrong here?

I just went out and bought some of those flossing picks to try.

Any advice?
Thanks
Jon

[Hungry Horse]

 Do you have touch hole liners in these guns? And if so, who's are they? I really like Chambers White Lightning. I have had no experience with Swiss priming powder, but have had good success with GEOX in both 3F, and 4F, so give them a try.

    Hungry Horse

[pd230soi]

Hi,

Soory, both White Lightning.  Seemingly properly installed.

[pd230soi]

If it matters, recovered patches are pretty well destroyed sometimes still smoldering a bit.  I use the same patches to wipe down between shots.

[T*O*F]

1.  Your patch is too thin.  Go up to at least .018 to .022. 
2.  Lose the bore butter and go to a more liquid lube.
3.  Never wipe with dry patches.  They just shove the fouling down into the breech and clog things up.
4.  You are getting blowby from your loose patch combo and it is building up in the rifling.
5.  With a liquid lube and tight fitting patches, you should be able to shoot all day without having to wipe.

[pd230soi]

Thank you very much for your response.

1. will order more
2. I will research and find a wetter lube
3. That makes sense based on what I see when I push out the round
4. Hmmmm
5. That is what i read, but had not experienced.

Thank you very much!

[PPatch]

Plain ol spit is an excellent lube.

dp

[Daryl]

Thank you very much for your response.

1. will order more ---- buy material, pure cotton denim in 10 ounce weight - cut them at the muzzle or precut your patches, square or round
2. I will research and find a wetter lube-----Winter Windshield Washer Fluid works well in cold climates - we add a bit of Neetsfoot oil maybe 2 ounces per pint
3. That makes sense based on what I see when I push out the round
4. Hmmmm
5. That is what I read, but had not experienced.---you will need a short starter - & - use a range rod until you are more experienced loading tight combinations --- and yes - spit is a VERY good lube by itself, but not for hunting - you need an oil or grease for that, that will dissolve BP fouling - Neetsfoot oil by itself is very good - or Track's Mink Oil

Thank you very much!

[Molly]

Have had a similar experience.  Swabbing after each shot can lead to simply pushing a lot of ash down the bore and eventually packing it against the breech and into the touch hole liner.  You can scrap the breech but that won't necessarily clear the touch hole cavity.  A discussion of other contributing factors is relevant but if it fires at first and then stops I feel it's fouling causing the failure to fire. 

[EC121]

You may have a cake building up on the face of the plug.  I had a rifle with the cake built up and just a tiny hole down to the vent.  Try bumping the breech face with a bare jag and see if you feel metal to metal contact.  Dump the bore butter.  It always made the fouling harder and drier for me.  I use TOTW mink oil or coconut oil from the grocery.  Seems like the fowling stays softer.  There are many good lubes around, but IMO bore butter isn't one of them.

[SCLoyalist]

With a well dampened patch, you can shoot,  load the next powder charge without swabbing, and the wet patch wrapped around the ball will push the fouling from the last shot down atop the powder.  Shoot, and repeat - you probably won't need to run a cleaning patch down until the end of the day.   However, you'll have to experiment to see if your gun gives the best groups with a wet patch.

A .54 barrel probably has grooves around 0.016" deep, so you need a patch and ball combination that fills up at least .572" of space for a good seal.   In my .54 Colerain I use a .530 diameter ball and 10 oz duck that measures .025" uncompressed.  Lubed just barely damp with Hoppes 9Plus, it loads pretty easy for at least 15 or 20 shots and the patches don't show any damage on recovery.

Since you're looking for a hunting load, one 'trick' I use with my .62 Caywood is to load the powder with an equal volume of cornmeal over the  powder and  then a really thinly patched ball.  Out in the woods, I can reload without a short starter and not put any real strain on the rifle's wooden ramrod.   The cornmeal serves as the gas seal; the thin patch takes up windage  so the rifling spins the ball.  Accuracy is acceptable out to 100 yds, and the patches don't even look scorched.   I carry a few two compartment quickload tubes in my bag: one end filled with powder, the other with cornmeal.    I never tried a long string of shots to see if misfires eventually become a problem, but for hunting, I don't figure to get more than a couple of shots a day in the woods unless the deer adopt banzai tactics. 

[bob in the woods]

When you say that your White Lightening liner is " poorly installed " ...can you elaborate ?    You did file off the excess that protrudes into the barrel didn't you ??  Is the flash hole right at the breach face or ahead of it, and if ahead...by how much ?   

[retired fella]

All good information.  One thing possibly missed is the positioning of your touchhole.  Is it possible that it is too close to the breech plug face?

Once was told by a very experienced shooter and builder having the same problem.  Got the flash but no bang on a new rifle.  Seems he forgot to drill the touch hole!!!

[pd230soi]

Bob,

Sorry if I was unclear.  the liners are Properly installed.

One may be closer to the breech face than intended, but no real difference between misfires in the two guns.  So i think its an operator error issue.

[Molly]

So it shoots well for 7 to 10 shots, then "flash no bang".  Seems like a clear problem of fouling at the breach and touch hole.  The other question is what causes it. 

[bgf]

If the white lightnings have the original sized touchholes, you should consider picking them out just before priming, every time.  You could also bore one out a little larger, somewhere shy of 1/16".  Fouling is building up IN the liner, I think, and maybe a small hole is preventing it from blowing itself clear.

[Dewey]

In addition to the above good suggestions, get a good vent pick!
And use it after each shot at least until you eliminate the source fouling in the vent area.

[Gene Carrell]

This has all been said before. I have just one rifle that will shoot with a patch less than .018 and that is a 25cal and it uses a .015 patch. Load loose and fouling will increase. Wipe between shots will drive fouling to the breach. You should be able to shoot continuously without swabbing the bore if you load tight and use a quality lube to soften what fouling remains in the bore. Swabbing between shots will drive fouling to the vent, whereas if you drop powder w/o swabbing a tight patched ball will drive lube softened fouling to the top of the powder charge instead of blocking the vent. Look to a thicker patch and use a good lube.

[Jerry V Lape]

You said you are wiping with a dry patches between shots.  You may find that a single wipe with a damp (as not wet enough to squeeze out fluid between your fingers) will help.  Also, I try to size my jag so that it goes down the bore easily but bunches up the patch on the jag for the return trip.  I think you are just packing the dry fouling down the bore and into the liner.  I had fouling trouble when I started shooting too.  The damp wipe and a pick of the touch hole solved that and I only have a problem when I don't pay attention to the condition of the flint. 

[oldtravler61]

No expert. But after I load, wipe the pan,prime an pic the touch hole. No problem. An I use Crisco for my lube. Well for 40 years or so it's worked very well.Also my prime is a mix of 3f an 2f and just a small amount in the pan. Might not be pc correct but the deer an squirrels never care.

[Dave R]

Is the face of the breach plug flat or is the lock positioned back so a groove was necessary to be ground in the face of the breach plug so powder will flow to the touch hole liner? If so fowling may be forced back into this groove and may be  obstructing  powder from entering the touch hole liner?

[satwel]

I used to wipe the bore after each shot with my .50 cal flint rifle and I experienced the same problems you describe. Then I stopped using mink oil as a patch lube. Now I use 4 drops of jojoba oil on each patch (.018 thick) and I stopped wiping after every shot. Now I can shoot all day without a flash in the pan. By wiping after each shot with a slightly dampened patch I was pushing the crud down into the breech, not removing it. When the rifle completely failed to fire, I would unscrew the vent liner and it would be plugged with crud. If your ball and patch combo is tight enough and your patches aren't too wet, there is no need to wipe between shots. My recovered patches are pristine and can be reused.

PPatch is right about saliva being a good patch lube. During matches when I fired immediately after reloading, I've used saliva with great success.

[pd230soi]

It might be a few weeks before I can get out again, but i am amazed i had not read about the tightness issue nor the pushing of the crud down into my vent.

Goes to show how much we benefit from a mentor....

Thanks all!

[Daryl]

I have read - perhaps right here at ALR, that a number of guys built flintlock rifles for plank and chunk shooting matches. The whole idea was to eliminate the pushed down crud problem many suffer with patent breeches and caplocks.  Depending on the design of the internals in a flinter, this could also be a problem with them.

[bgf]

I have read - perhaps right here at ALR, that a number of guys built flintlock rifles for plank and chunk shooting matches. The whole idea was to eliminate the pushed down crud problem many suffer with patent breeches and caplocks.  Depending on the design of the internals in a flinter, this could also be a problem with them.

My chunk gun is flint/patent breech and never had a problem with wiping bore, which I do in matches.  My flint offhand rifle can be wiped as well, though I don't often do it except if it sits between relays or some other condition makes it seem prudent.  The offhand rifle is flat breech, but it has a 1/4" OD liner installed ~3/16" ahead of plug face (to allow larger liner if ever needed).  Im thinking crud from wiping might be a bigger problem if the touchhole sat right at the plug face?  Incidentally, I have never scraped the breech, but when I've pulled the plug (for curiosity, etc.), the face of the breech looks pretty much like it did years ago.  Bucket cleaning, except in the "field"...