Changing frizzen geometry?

[Tenn Hills Guy]

I built a swivel breech flinter from the Dave Waters plans.  I dry fired it a number of times during the construction and the frizzens have lost all spark.  I attempted to re-harden one with Kasenite...actually a product named 'Quick Hard' from a welding supply shop, looks the same,  no spark yet.  I'm not happy with the geometry, having 'stretched' and bent the cock so it comes down to center of the pan.  The flint is now striking on the bottom 1/3rd of the frizzen.  I'd like to anneal the frizzen and add more curve to raise the strike.
Any thoughts on how to best do this?  Bill

[Hungry Horse]

 Quick Hard is a hardening compound, but it doesn't work for frizzens. The only product I could get to work on frizzens  is Kasenite. Get it red hot, dip it in Kasenite, and then heat soak it for about 30 minutes. I got a trade gun frizzens so hard doing this I had to temper it in the oven.

    Hungry Horse

[Acer Saccharum]

A rambling opinion.

I've heated frizzens to get more curve, hoping for more shearing action. I do this with the frizz red hot. I then anneal the frizzen by cooling slowly in a can of wood ashes. (Now is a good time to file off casting lines, file the frizzen surfaces smooth, engrave, etc.) Next I bring the frizzen to a red heat, and hold it there for ten minutes with an acetylene-rich flame, then dunk it in very warm oil. (This assumes YOUR frizzen is oil hardening?) Draw the temper to straw for the strike zone, and blue for the tail, pivot and cover.

  The flint really oughta hit 1/2 way on the frizzen, or a little higher, if you can make that happen:
1) Try moving the flint out a little longer, or mount it bevel DOWN.
2) Last resort: your cock might be bent too far if it's hitting on the bottom 1/3 of the frizzen.

[Bob Roller]

I built a swivel breech flinter from the Dave Waters plans.  I dry fired it a number of times during the construction and the frizzens have lost all spark.  I attempted to re-harden one with Kasenite...actually a product named 'Quick Hard' from a welding supply shop, looks the same,  no spark yet.  I'm not happy with the geometry, having 'stretched' and bent the cock so it comes down to center of the pan.  The flint is now striking on the bottom 1/3rd of the frizzen.  I'd like to anneal the frizzen and add more curve to raise the strike.
Any thoughts on how to best do this?  Bill

Bill,
Every one of the Shoults Ketland flint locks I made over a LONG time frame had the frizzen altered for better sparks.
Some had carbon deficient frizzens and were a source of trouble.These were produced in foundries that cared nothing about the needs of the customer and I got a bad reputation because of these people.L.C.Rice and the early L&R's can write a book about these problems.Once I started getting better quality frizzens made from 52-100 the trouble stopped. I recurved the frizzens by tightly clamping the foot that rides the spring in a 5 inch vise and then heated the face to a bright orange and bent it to a curve using a crescent wrench and a new 5 inch grinding wheel as a radius gauge. Can you post pictures of this project as it is?? You may have carbon deficient frizzen problems here and that calls for new and better frizzens or a carbon steel face on the ones you have.

Bob Roller

[rich pierce]

All things work together on a good lock and against each other on a poor one, it seems.  I've changed the cock angle as you did but the goal of changing the cock angle is to get it to strike the frizzen in the right place, not to get it to point into the pan at rest.  All the pan pointing happens after the sparks are made.  Sort of line an end zone dance after the touchdown.  The touchdown (sparks in the pan) is the real event.  I know there's been a lot said about pointing into the pan but I never understood that, myself. 

You may have created a problem on top of a problem.  Problem 1 was a frizzen improperly hardened.  Now by bending the cock the flint also strikes too low on the frizzen.

[smart dog]

Hi Bill,
What maker and model lock parts did you use? 

dave

[JCKelly]

Our Gov't no longer permits Kasenit to be sold. Because it contains potassium ferrocyanide.

Gov't says dangerous to use.

So look at ingredients of your grocery store, economy brand table salt.

Contains potassium ferrocyanide to prevent clumping

It all makes sense. Really. 

[Tenn Hills Guy]

Can't remember model of cock/frizzen, plans called for Manton, but at at the time I couldn't find. Would have bought from Dixie or TOW...probably! I guess at this point I need to try and get the frizzens to spark again before doing anything else.  Seems the both died about the same time! Seems from my own pic, I need to bend the jaws back some.......'point in the pan' or not!  Pic shows half-cock!  Also I have a pair of old CVA pistols, 20+ years old.....never fail!

[Tenn Hills Guy]

No wonder I couldn't find Kasenite on my search last night! Haven't had any for 15 + years.

[Bob Roller]

Can't remember model of cock/frizzen, plans called for Manton, but at at the time I couldn't find. Would have bought from Dixie or TOW...probably! I guess at this point I need to try and get the frizzens to spark again before doing anything else.  Seems the both died about the same time! Seems from my own pic, I need to bend the jaws back some.......'point in the pan' or not!  Pic shows half-cock!  Also I have a pair of old CVA pistols, 20+ years old.....never fail!

I just used a compass from my drafting tools and can see no way that lock arrangement can ever look or work right.The cock looks like it's set too far back.Using this compass at the center of the cock screw I opened it to the edge of the flint and rolled it to where it would hit the frizzen. It's way too low. MAYBE if you can get a complete cock from the Davis Twigg and install it the strike of the flint would be higher and give it a chance to work. Kasenit was taken off the market I think in 2011. I have seen opportunists at Friendship trying to sell a spoon full for $20 and I wish them failure.That kind gouging has always got me POed and always will.

Bob Roller

[Tenn Hills Guy]

 Consistent spark....but, no ignition.
First, I heated the top of the cock and bent the jaw back upward.
Next, I got my old ladle out and put it in the vise. Poured about 1/2 cup of the
Quick Hard in and put the frizzen in with the back down and pretty much covered it.
Used my Map gas torch(note: MAP...not the good ole MAPP gas) and held a yellowish flame into the ladle for a good 5 minutes....the frizzen was holding about orange. water plunge.
I'm now getting a consistent yellowish spark with a trace of white sparks.  My BP has been in the flask a long time....I'll see if I can find some fresher.

[jerrywh]

 I have done what you are thinking several times and it worked out well. Acer and Bob Roller give top advice.  I have found frizzens that will not spark very well and found the trouble to be that they were cast out of a chrome alloy. Some frizzens were cast out of 6150 I don't think they ever worked very well either. In some cases I had to make new ones out of 1095 or 01. The best frizzens are made out od straight carbon steel. Anything from 01 to 1075 is good.  I am not familiar with the alloys  that bob speaks of at times, But have complete confidence in his advise. I always charcoal pack harden mine and then treat them the same as Acer describes. I once fixed a Thompson center flintlock that sparked so well 2/3 of the time it would fire without priming the pan by making a frizzen out of 01 carbon steel. It is the carbon in the steel that produces the spark. The only thing the flint does is shear steel off and cause the heat for combustion.  
 I quit using Kasenite over 40 years ago because it doesn't put a deep enough case on for frizzens. I use ferrocyanide for screws at times.
  Sounds to me like you just don't have the proper equipment to do the job.

[Tenn Hills Guy]

Finally.......Bang!  Heated, bent the jaws downward a bit so more or less parallel to the bbls at half cock.  Used a smaller...should say shorter flint, bevel down, leather wrap.
I will indeed try the 'slow cook' method on the on the frizzen, but for now at least it appears I have gotten the geometry PDC...pretty dam close!

[Mark Elliott]

A rambling opinion.

I've heated frizzens to get more curve, hoping for more shearing action. I do this with the frizz red hot. I then anneal the frizzen by cooling slowly in a can of wood ashes. (Now is a good time to file off casting lines, file the frizzen surfaces smooth, engrave, etc.) Next I bring the frizzen to a red heat, and hold it there for ten minutes with an acetylene-rich flame, then dunk it in very warm oil. (This assumes YOUR frizzen is oil hardening?) Draw the temper to straw for the strike zone, and blue for the tail, pivot and cover.

  The flint really oughta hit 1/2 way on the frizzen, or a little higher, if you can make that happen:
1) Try moving the flint out a little longer, or mount it bevel DOWN.
2) Last resort: your cock might be bent too far if it's hitting on the bottom 1/3 of the frizzen.

I just wanted to note that it is important to pay attention to Tom's tempering instructions.   A frizzen will not spark well completely hard.    It is very important to draw the temper a bit.    I use a heat treat oven and temper mine to 375.   Fortunately,  I still have plenty of Kasenite left to ease the surface hardening. 

[Tenn Hills Guy]

I tempered this one the last time in the wife's oven!
A pic of the latest changes in the half cock and 'fire' positions.


I'll do the tempering tomorrow the suggested way.  Winds up I didn't change the frizzen  at all, just the cock. Perhaps the second hardening with the QH made the difference.