Author Topic: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?  (Read 9033 times)

Tenn Hills Guy

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Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« on: October 31, 2015, 06:29:37 PM »
Somewhere I read the pull required to cock the lock should be no more than 10 lbs (How much is too little to fire?) and the frizzen spring at about 3 lbs. I attempted to measure my hand made back action lock and came up with slightly over 11 lbs.
I'm wondering if any of you fellows perform this test and what ratio works for you.
I'm tempted to shave some more weight off mine 'cause I feel the cock to be too stiff.
Basically, I took the lock only, put the end on my digital scale and cocked to measure. Bill

Offline smart dog

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2015, 07:21:14 PM »
Hi Bill,
The ratio of those pressures is about right but I would not worry overly about the absolute values.  My locks usually take 11-15lbs to bring to full cock.  I find it best if the frizzen spring pressure should be 30-50% of that needed to bring the flintcock back to full from complete rest.  On a swivel breech, it is a good idea to make sure the frizzen spring tension is sufficient to keep the pan cover firmly closed if the frizzen is knocked while in the down position.  On the swivel breech I recently finished, that force was 4-5 lbs.  Full cock force on that rifle was 11-12lbs.  Your swivel action and mine have flintcocks with relatively short throw.  That geometry is best served with powerful mainsprings.

dave
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2015, 08:35:54 PM »
 I want someone to try this test. Take the frizzen spring off of the lock. Close the frizzen ,cock the hammer and fire the lock. You will find that the lock will give about twice as many sparks as it does with the frizzen spring on. If you don't then your lock is not like any others I have tested.
   This test confirms what I once read in a English book on flint locks. The frizzen springs purpose is mainly to keep the prime from falling out of the pan. It must be strong enough to keep the frizzen  closed when going through the brush in case a limb or some other thing causes it to open and spill the prime. On a hunting gun I want a fairly strong frizzen spring . For a target gun I want one that is relatively week.  Try my experiment.  Common sense tells me that a weaker frizzen spring makes a faster lock speed.   
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2015, 08:55:24 PM »
That's interesting, Jerry.

I'd not want to fire a lock without a frizzen Spring, for fear of slamming it into the stock, or shearing off the bolt of an unbridled frizzen.
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2015, 09:17:50 PM »
 Do it off the gun.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2015, 11:32:50 PM »
Jerry is absolutely correct. I had a spring break, and completed a match without it.  Probably fired at least 1/2 a dozen times . 

Offline smart dog

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2015, 12:25:18 AM »
Hi Jerry,
That is a great observation and I've done exactly what you suggest for years.  With every lock I build or put on a gun, I fire it without the frizzen spring.  I expect the geometry of the lock alone to create lots of sparks.  If it doesn't, I generally find that I have to adjust the geometry of the lock.  Then I install the frizzen spring and adjust its tension. I just did this a couple of days ago with an early 18th century English flintlock that I built.  Without the feather spring it produced excellent sparks but it also knapped my flint as the frizzen bounced back.  I mounted the frizzen spring adjusted to about 30-40% of the force needed to bring the lock to full cock and bingo, same great sparks just no knapped flint. I have no way of judging ignition speed.  I also fired the same lock with a weak feather spring as I was adjusting the spring tension.  It had sufficient force to hold the pan shut adequately but put up only slight resistance to the flint.  Good sparks, kick back, knapped flint, covered pan. 

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline A.Merrill

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2015, 06:59:02 AM »
    I have a Siler lock I bought in the '70s that Pete Allen put together. The frizzen spring is very very lite and the cock is easy to pull to full cock. As far as bounce back goes I don't know of any, but  i use buckskin to hold my flint and I leave it a little long over the top of the flint so any bounce back don't matter. I get at least 100 rounds out of a flint. I Don't understand why the locks today have such strong springs......Alan
Alan K. Merrill

Offline smart dog

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2015, 03:43:14 PM »
Hi Allan,
A strong spring is faster but more important, it depends on the lock.  A Siler, like many similar locks, has a fairly long throw to the flintcock. That long arc allows a light mainspring to power the flintcock and flint and produce good sparks.  That makes for longer lock time but is, as you say, easy on the flints.  In my experience, on late period flintlocks with a short throw, that situation does not work very well. The flintcock simply does not have sufficient arc to build up momentum. The short throw and powerful mainspring mean quick lock time and sure sparking for those locks. 

Let me share some insights on lock springs I gained while building my Wogdon dueling pistol locks and handling some fine late flint period English dueling pistols. I would love to hear from Bob Roller on this. All of the locks on those pistols, including mine, had roller bearings either on the frizzens or on the feather springs. All of the mainsprings were powerful but all of the feather springs were relatively weak.  However, the roller bearing boosted the pressure of the frizzens on the pans of the locks.  It took considerable force to start the frizzen forward when struck but once over the apex of the roller or hump on the feather spring, the frizzen kicked over with almost no pressure. It would bounce back slightly until the toe of the frizzen was stopped by the hump or roller on the feather spring. The frizzen exerted strong resistance to the flint for only that instant of strike and then it was as if the feather spring was removed. Ever since that experience, I've made fairly strong feather springs on my locks without roller frizzens to provide firm pressure to keep the pan closed, provide some resistence to the flint strike, and prevent kick back.  On locks with roller frizzens, I mount weak frizzen springs and let the roller do the work.  In all, I install strong mainsprings because I like fast locks and I demonstrably shoot better with them.

dave   
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2015, 06:40:12 PM »
Hi Allan,
A strong spring is faster but more important, it depends on the lock.  A Siler, like many similar locks, has a fairly long throw to the flintcock. That long arc allows a light mainspring to power the flintcock and flint and produce good sparks.  That makes for longer lock time but is, as you say, easy on the flints.  In my experience, on late period flintlocks with a short throw, that situation does not work very well. The flintcock simply does not have sufficient arc to build up momentum. The short throw and powerful mainspring mean quick lock time and sure sparking for those locks. 

Let me share some insights on lock springs I gained while building my Wogdon dueling pistol locks and handling some fine late flint period English dueling pistols. I would love to hear from Bob Roller on this. All of the locks on those pistols, including mine, had roller bearings either on the frizzens or on the feather springs. All of the mainsprings were powerful but all of the feather springs were relatively weak.  However, the roller bearing boosted the pressure of the frizzens on the pans of the locks.  It took considerable force to start the frizzen forward when struck but once over the apex of the roller or hump on the feather spring, the frizzen kicked over with almost no pressure. It would bounce back slightly until the toe of the frizzen was stopped by the hump or roller on the feather spring. The frizzen exerted strong resistance to the flint for only that instant of strike and then it was as if the feather spring was removed. Ever since that experience, I've made fairly strong feather springs on my locks without roller frizzens to provide firm pressure to keep the pan closed, provide some resistence to the flint strike, and prevent kick back.  On locks with roller frizzens, I mount weak frizzen springs and let the roller do the work.  In all, I install strong mainsprings because I like fast locks and I demonstrably shoot better with them.

dave   

OK,here goes a bit of trivia. A stiff spring is by no means a strong spring.A strong spring is limber and will accelerate the hammer or cock quickly. My own test on a flint lock is to pull the cock back about 3/8 of an inch and let it snap down. It should be abrupt in action. The stiff spring will be noticeably sluggish on a short snap like that.I have seen original English locks with frizzen springs that are like a rat trap when closed and when the cock moves the flint across the face of the frizzen the sparks will be white hot and roll up in a ball and sizzle in the pan.  The mainspring in these locks is strong with a whip action that a stiff spring can't achieve. When all cast locks started showing up all of them had stiff springs,some to the point where the link/stirrup would break and the spring could descend and wreck the bottom of the lock mortise.
Making springs is a trade/skill set of its own and requires first a desire to learn it and finding good quality spring steel which today is no real problem. I have developed my own ways of making mainsprings and they seem to work out very well.I use a small sine bar system to establish the taper on the lower limb and it is clamped tightly in a heavy duty milling machine vise and then a dedicated carbide end mill does the work.I have used this idea for years and it works well and saves a lot of effort in filing.I have no romanticized ideas about antiquity and use any labor saving methods I can come up with that are compatible with the quality I want to send to a buyer.

Bob Roller


Offline jerrywh

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2015, 08:27:09 PM »
 BOB
 Are you telling us you don't use stone tools? You could be excommunicated for that.
 Jacob Dickert never had a CNC but he always wished he did.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2015, 10:26:55 PM »
No stone tools nor am I stoned ;D
As soon as possible I will post a picture
of the fixture I use to taper the lower limb
of a mainspring with.It reflects the enfeebled
mind that uses it.

Bob Roller

Offline smart dog

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2015, 12:15:26 AM »
Feeble mind my a$%.  Thanks for sharing your insights and knowledge Bob.  They are treasures to many of us.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Don Steele

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2015, 01:53:13 PM »
What is a "Feather spring"...???
I'm attempting to learn all I can about locks. As a result, I'm enjoying this thread, but I'm not familiar with the term "feather spring".
Thanks.
Look at the world with a smilin' eye and laugh at the devil as his train rolls by...(Alison Krauss)

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2015, 02:58:42 PM »
What is a "Feather spring"...???
I'm attempting to learn all I can about locks. As a result, I'm enjoying this thread, but I'm not familiar with the term "feather spring".
Thanks.

It's a frizzen spring. "Frizzen"is also called a battery. Some think that the
term frizzen is a corruption of an old German word "Fressen"or chewed on.

Bob Roller

Offline draken

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2015, 07:05:13 PM »
The first flintlock I owned would go through a flint in just a few shots.  I cured it by lightening the frizzen spring.   The lock sparked better and flint life increased considerably.   Since then I have made a practice of always lightening the frizzen spring. 

Just the humble opinion of a rank amatuer
 
Dick 

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Tenn Hills Guy

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2015, 11:48:49 PM »
A simplistic question and it yields a wealth of experience and knowledge!  Don't think you can learn this stuff in books.  But, alas, I know not how to text messages and  Facebook.

Hemo

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2015, 03:06:55 AM »


It's a frizzen spring. "Frizzen"is also called a battery. Some think that the
term frizzen is a corruption of an old German word "Fressen"or chewed on.

Bob Roller
[/quote]

I have also read that "frizzen" may be a sort of contraction for the German "feuer eisen", or fire iron.

Gregg

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2015, 05:24:56 AM »


It's a frizzen spring. "Frizzen"is also called a battery. Some think that the
term frizzen is a corruption of an old German word "Fressen"or chewed on.

Bob Roller

I have also read that "frizzen" may be a sort of contraction for the German "feuer eisen", or fire iron.

Gregg
[/quote]

If you say it fast,that IS a distinct possibility.

Bob Roller

Offline Don Steele

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Re: Mainspring to frizzen spring tension?
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2015, 02:57:43 PM »
If you look at one of mine...
"Chewed on" makes a LOT of sense...!!! ::)
Look at the world with a smilin' eye and laugh at the devil as his train rolls by...(Alison Krauss)