Advice needed. Tennessee rifle

[BillingsDave]

My first post here. Great forum! It's time to build another rifle. I have built two rifles. One representative of a 1890 LeHigh Valley, and and also an early Lancaster Valley rifle. This time I would like to build one representative of what my great great grandfather might have carried when left Tennessee to move to Southwest Missouri in 1852. I know it it impossible to know exactly what he might have carried. Here is some background. He was born in Lincoln county Tennessee (south central Tennessee on the the Alabama border) in 1832. When we was 17 he volunteered for service in the Mexican war and served under General Scott during his push to Mexico City. In 1852 when he was 21 he along with his wife and child joined a wagon train from Lincoln county bound for Missourii. He eventually settled in Christain county Missouri.
Again, I know that it is impossible to know exactly what he might have carried, but if you were going to build a rifle representative of what he MIGHT have carried, what would it be? Thanks

[woodsrunner]

I don't know how factual this is, and to be honest I have questions about it being "known as the truth", but 20-25 years ago at the Alamo out in San Antonio, on prominent display, was a Jacob Dickert rifle "supposedly" belonging to Davy Crockett. It interested me so much that I got with one of the Museum officials while I was there to try and find out what was factually known about the situation. The Museum Rep. told me that it was, without question, Crockett's Rifle, and that when the Alamo fell the WIFE of one of the Mexican soldiers took the rifle from Crocket's dead body and took it back to Mexico with her where it had been recovered from descendants of the Mexican family only a few years previous to my visit. I do know that it was common at the time for wives/female companions to go with the Mexican Army troops (and others--even our WBTS) and scavenge equipment etc., but this appeared to me to be a little far fetched.....about like every old SXS muzzleloading shotgun seen having been carried by "my great grandpappy at Gettysburg" that you so commonly hear!

It would be my thoughts that a piece taken to Texas from Tennessee in this time period would most probably be a Tennessee piece like those common in Jerry Noble's books.

[JCKelly]

Jerry Noble has written about four books on Southern rifles. Guess they may be a little pricey these days.

The late Robin Hale wrote a piece for the Society of American Arms Collectors some years ago. It is more or less available with a bit of effort.

Books are nice. Some of the very best rifle photos I've seen are found on internet auction sites. Cowans, in Cincinnati, had a collection of Tennessee rifles on auction just a few years ago. Go through their archives.

If you really want to be authentic pester Bob Roller for off-set set triggers.

On a flint rifle the lock should be English style, late. Don't use a Germanic style of lock, such as the classic Bud Siler, for an iconic Tennessee rifle,

[Bob Roller]

Jerry Noble has written about four books on Southern rifles. Guess they may be a little pricey these days.

The late Robin Hale wrote a piece for the Society of American Arms Collectors some years ago. It is more or less available with a bit of effort.

Books are nice. Some of the very best rifle photos I've seen are found on internet auction sites. Cowans, in Cincinnati, had a collection of Tennessee rifles on auction just a few years ago. Go through their archives.

If you really want to be authentic pester Bob Roller for off-set set triggers.

On a flint rifle the lock should be English style, late. Don't use a Germanic style of lock, such as the classic Bud Siler, for an iconic Tennessee rifle,

I am no longer "pesterable" on these odd triggers. You and Taylor have the only two sets I have made in over 50 years.

Bob Roller

[jdm]

Jerry Noble still has books available . They are very reasonable. Thirty to forty dollars I would guess. If you would like his contact information send me a P. M. and  I will get it to you.   

Where is Christain  county Missouri?    JIM

[CW Smokepole]

BD- are you determined to build a replica, or could an original be within your scope of interest? I'm in the extreme SE corner of TN, and since moving here back in 2005, I have uncovered and bought perhaps a dozen original muzzle-loaders in my quadrant. My guess as to what he might have had in the early 1850s would depend upon his station in life at the time. My findings so far would lead me to believe if he was dirt-poor, he'd have a cut-down fullstock flinter converted to percussion, and if he had some more assets, he might have owned a "store-boughten" Pennsylvania percussion rifle like a Henry Leman. If you're at all interested in an original found in SE TN, E me directly and I'll copy you with photos and descriptions.  If you plan to play Mr. Dress-up though, of course you would want a reproduction  rifle to go along with all your other "reproduction" pioneer trappings...

[woodsrunner]

Does Dennis know about these "Originals" you've found? Possibly any original Gillespies in the bunch?

[jdm]

Dave, I sent you a reply by P.M.

[ricktull]

Crocketts Alamo rifle from above post. Maybe so, maybe no. The only thing that is fairly well documented is he bought a flintlock before he got to the Alamo because he found out he couldn't get caps in Texas. There are so many unknowns about that I don't think much of the stuff there can be documented as being battle used.

[WadePatton]

I do believe there is a gun on display in Fayetteville, or somewhere, from a maker of Lincoln Co.  I ran across this somewhere in my studies of TN.  I'm located 2 counties north and a touch East.  Someday I'll go look at the gun in person.  Possibly a name here in the research dept.

IF the timing is right, makes sense to me that a fella might wind up with a gun from the local maker.

I also recommend Jerry Nobles books for getting it right the first time.

[BillingsDave]

Thanks to everyone for all the ideas and advice. WadePatton, I think I may have found the gunsmith you spoke of. His name was Alfred Bearden and he was actively building rifles in Lincoln county during the correct time period. It appears his rifles are highly saught after by collectors. I was able to find pictures of 3 of his rifles. His rifles were more of a  "Pennsylvania" style rather than a southern mountain style.

[WadePatton]

I suppose that's why I didn't pursue the lead further. 

[C. Cash]

I've wondered the same thing, my ancestors having taken almost that same exact trail/Mexican War pattern.  My guys were in Roane/Meigs TN, to Mexican War, back to TN and then to Cedar County MO. I've read testimonies of Soldiers from SW Tennessee refer to their "squirrel rifles" from the era of the Mexican War.  I would assume a Soddy Daisy style rifle would do nicely?  That's what I think of when I think of these squirrel rifles.  That is my uneducated guess.  But then, you really want a rifle that feels good to you too and that drastic stock drop doesn't feel good to me.  The Early Lancaster style rifles feel good and feasibly they could have wound up down there as well?

[BillingsDave]

C. Cash, yes a Soddy Daisy is certainly a possibly, but like you they have way too much drop for me. There seem to be a whole lot of possibilities. I think I have it narrowed down to a Bearden (if I can find some better pictures) simply because he was making rifles in Lincoln county at the time, or a Leman. While they were not rich it does appear they had a little money so it is possible he could have purchased a Leman at the local general store. No way to really go wrong so I will make my decision on what most appeals to me. I think many of the Tennessee Mexican war vets moved west to Missouri to use their bounties (free land) because Missouri still had lots of government land left at the time.

[retired fella]

billingsdave,

Why not build them all and cover all of your bases?   Sounds like fun to me.

             

[BillingsDave]

Excellent idea! 

[C. Cash]

Folks seemed to flow from the North East of Tennessee down into the South West, as the land opened up, so there are lots of possibilities indeed.

[BillingsDave]

Folks seemed to flow from the North East of Tennessee down into the South West, as the land opened up, so there are lots of possibilities indeed.

That is exactly what happened with my GG grandfather's line. They started in Virginia in 1609 then over time made their way to North Carolina, then Tennessee, and finally Missouri. Never made it to the Southwest unless you count me. We lived in Tucson Arizona for 24 years.

[C. Cash]

Yep that was the route for so many.  These rifles were hard used tools.  One wonders, did the rifle grandad brought from VA, NC, East TN still hang on the wall in 1848 SW TN or Missouri?  With large families, odds are he didn't get Dad or grand Dad's rifle and he had to buy one locally?  So, I am thinking you would be on the right track with a local rifle.  Shotguns would have been popular as well(moreso?), based on so many Confederate Cavalrymen from SW Tenn. dragging them from home.  They must have been around in large quantities based on that alone.

[nosrettap1958]

A rifle Crockett traded for a land deal in Tennessee was a Pennsylvania rifle possibly built by Jacob Dickert or some Lancaster or even a York County built rifle. The rifle he had at the Alamo was probably a trade rifle purchased on the way down to the Alamo possibly a Henry Derringer or Henry Leman rifle typically sold at trading posts and readily available.  The famous Pennsylvania(?) possibly a Dickert rifle where he won so many shooting matches with back in Tennessee was long gone by 1836.

There is a quote from "Battles and Leaders" Vol. 1 where muster for a recently raised Tennessee regiment during 1861 took place and the recruits had there personal weapons with them at the muster. The quote was, "They all had their squirrel rifles and these they knew how to use."

[nosrettap1958]

When we was 17 he volunteered for service in the Mexican war and served under General Scott during his push to Mexico City. In 1852 when he was 21 he along with his wife and child joined a wagon train from Lincoln county bound for Missourii. He eventually settled in Christain county Missouri.
Again, I know that it is impossible to know exactly what he might have carried, but if you were going to build a rifle representative of what he MIGHT have carried, what would it be? Thanks

We could narrow it down a bit, Was he an officer in the Mexican War under General Scott? What rank was he? Did he own the land he worked or did he work someone else's land? If he owned land how much?   What was his station in life while in Tennessee?

[BillingsDave]

He was only a private in Mexican War. He was in a company commanded by a Capt. Wheat which was part of a regiment commanded by Gidion Pillow. His father owned their land in Tennessee. I doubt that he owned any land there, but when he moved to Missouri in 1852, at age 21, he did purchase ( or use his MW land bounty) 40 acres of govt. land in Berry County Missouri. In 1856 he sold that land and moved to Christian County (adjoining Berry) and purchased another 40 acres of government land. So it would appear that they had a little- but not much. His situation changed after the civil war. He was a 1st Lt. in Co. H, 16th Missouri Cavilary (Union), and was in every major battle in Missouri. After the war he was suddenly able to acquire 320 acres of some of the best farm land in Christain county from the railroad. I have always wondered where he acquired the funds to purchase that land!

[nosrettap1958]

Talk about a full life!!!!  So his father owned land and could bartered for or pay for a rifle to give to his son, possibly. Possibly a local builder then and I'm betting his Father knew this Alfred Bearden. 

[FDR]

Another little known Lincoln County,TN gunsmith of the time period was Samuel Roe (Rowe). I do not know if any of his rifles have survived. I believe Sam was from the Booneville area (slightly west of Lynchburg) and Crockett first settled near Mulberry ( Lincoln Co.) which is only a short horse ride from Booneville. Crockett then  moving from Lincoln Co to Franklin County. The Franklin Co museum has a lot of early Crockett papers and other things. Poly Crockett is buried in Franklin Co.
Most of Crockett's Indian fighting days were from when he lived in Franklin Co.

[BillingsDave]

According to the 1850 census, he, his father, and both the gunsmiths Bearden and Roe lived in the same political subdivision. His father owned a farm, but he did not. He and his wife's household is listed right after his fathers but in a separate  dwelling. Probably a small cabin on the fathers land. He was one of 9 children - 7 girls and 2 boys. His brother was 15 years older and of course would have inherited the fathers land. Thus, the old story of a younger son moving west. Eventually all of his sisters and their families followed him to Missouri. Only his brother and his family stayed in Tennessee. By the way, his name was Stephen L. Wiles, and his father was Stephen Wiles. The brother who stayed in Tennessee was Charles Wiles. I believe I have decided to try and reproduce a Bearden rifle if I can find some better pictures. So far I have only found two, one flint and one cap lock, but the picture quality is poor. Also, I have discovered that the gunsmith Alfred Bearden was a Freemason. My GG grandfather, Stephen L. was a Mason, so there is one more reason to believe he might have carried a Bearden rifle. I do know if his father, Stephen, was a Mason, but I would suspect that was the case. I am a Mason, so one more reason to go with a Bearden style.