Author Topic: No cone  (Read 6141 times)

Offline Dphariss

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No cone
« on: April 17, 2009, 03:56:53 AM »
This is a Douglas 54 barrel. I have shot 530 and 535 with a heavy ticking patch for years.
If the link to video does not work let me know trying to get it on myspace but its not working.
Patch is lubed with Neatfoot oil.
Dan
P.S. this is a swaged ball and runs between .534 to .539 love those swages.









« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 04:09:40 AM by Dphariss »
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Offline RobertS

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Re: No cone
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2009, 05:39:00 AM »
Thanks, Dan, very interesting, and the video worked, too! 

Offline hanshi

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Re: No cone
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2009, 06:04:49 AM »
Great video.  For many years I seated ball exactly the same way.  My barrel wasn't crowned like that but somehow i managed to load okay.  When you mention neats foot oil, I'm guessing it's not the "compound"?
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Mike R

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Re: No cone
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2009, 03:29:35 PM »
...neat, but my eyebrows went up when I saw you seat the ball with hand over end of ramrod.  I was taught that was dangerous.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: No cone
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2009, 04:41:44 PM »
...neat, but my eyebrows went up when I saw you seat the ball with hand over end of ramrod.  I was taught that was dangerous.

Your concern is commendable.
 But....Geez....
How in the "heck" you can push a ball down once the rod is only 3" out of the muzzle is beyond me. I suppose I could pound it down with a knife handle. I have shot ML guns since a I was about 16 years old. When loaded the rod on most rifles protrudes 2-3" from the bore. This rifle has a marked rod to show when the ball is fully seated. Its 2 5/8" from the end of the rod.
It is not possible to load it otherwise.
Yes one may make rod holes deeper and I like to when building if its possible. But I did not drill this rod hole.
Now we have the "make the rod longer" idea. Let it stick out beyond the muzzle 3-4". Sure. But you better accuracy test it. Then you have the "brush catcher"/"break off the rod in the woods" aspect. Gave up on this before I was 20.

Frankly there are far more reports of burst barrels related to material failures than people shooting a rod through their hand.  Lots more. But I better not go there.
The number of REALLY junky import  guns continues to grow and we wills we will see more blowups. If anyone read the report from HP White on the Indian made musket that failed and then read an HP White report on another will realize than there is "something" missing. Either left out of the report by the importer of HP White was not paid to look at the material. In either case the report is incomplete. Of course I have to wonder how the powder got to the breech if the bore was obstructed. ::)

Everything is dangerous to some extent. The "never get in front of the muzzle" rule is just fine..., for breech loaders. Its not going to work for ML arms. Its impossible. There is a compromise between what you must do to shoot the gun and what is "safe" by some standard invented after the BL became the norm.
The most dangerous thing most people ever do is get in a vehicle and ride in it on public roads. The killed and injured is mind boggling.

Dan
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Daryl

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Re: No cone
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2009, 05:39:55 PM »
Points well made and taken, Dan. The video was good, along with the intro- pre-pictures.  I-too load like that just to prove it can be done with a good crown. It is easier with a larger than 3/8" rod, though.  I do like a bit more polish on the corners of the lands and bottom of the grooves than yours.  It's even easier to start the ball.

 Lost my starter once on a 'Seneca Run' - trouble is I was shooting the .45 Bauska with .448" bore and .028" rifling depth = .504" groove depth. I was shooting a .457" ball with .022" denim patch.  Of course, this slowed my 'run', but I still managed a second or third.  The ball was .009" LARGER than the bore plus a .022" patch.  3/8" hickory rod- I had to be careful - but do it quickly.
We wonder why people can't load a ball .005" under, with a .020" patch - as you have shown, without a starter, let alone with one. 

Too - those who need to load without a starter as it adds a step in loading, but have to use a wad between powder and patched ball to help save the patch and form a seal, which in itself adds a step in the loading - does not compute.  Save a step but add a step?

Offline hanshi

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Re: No cone
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2009, 06:09:57 PM »
Dphariss, The oldest of my two guns with flat, uncrowned muzzles is the one I use to load without a starter.  Pretty tough go but I don't recall any particular aggravation with it even with the over sized ball.  Younger back then.  The others ARE crowned much like yours but I now use a short starter for everything. 

You are correct in that you have to be exposed to the muzzle at some point with an ml.  The nature of the beast.  I use a deer antler palm saver for that last couple inches.  That's the only way I'm able seat the ball comfortably.  Kinda painful pushing on that small tip.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: No cone
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2009, 12:45:30 AM »
Great video.  For many years I seated ball exactly the same way.  My barrel wasn't crowned like that but somehow i managed to load okay.  When you mention neats foot oil, I'm guessing it's not the "compound"?

Yes *pure Neatsfoot Oil* (examine the label carefully before buying), bear oil or Sperm whale oil will all load like this.

Dan
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Leatherbelly

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Re: No cone
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2009, 03:24:30 AM »
   Dan,
 I appreciate what your are doing,but I'll stick to my non/PC short starter. Gives me the willys seeing a ramrod torqued up like that.You've proved an important point though,it can be done on a simply crowned muzzle. Thanx

Offline Dphariss

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Re: No cone
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2009, 05:47:30 AM »
Points well made and taken, Dan. The video was good, along with the intro- pre-pictures.  I-too load like that just to prove it can be done with a good crown. It is easier with a larger than 3/8" rod, though.  I do like a bit more polish on the corners of the lands and bottom of the grooves than yours.  It's even easier to start the ball.

 Lost my starter once on a 'Seneca Run' - trouble is I was shooting the .45 Bauska with .448" bore and .028" rifling depth = .504" groove depth. I was shooting a .457" ball with .022" denim patch.  Of course, this slowed my 'run', but I still managed a second or third.  The ball was .009" LARGER than the bore plus a .022" patch.  3/8" hickory rod- I had to be careful - but do it quickly.
We wonder why people can't load a ball .005" under, with a .020" patch - as you have shown, without a starter, let alone with one. 

Too - those who need to load without a starter as it adds a step in loading, but have to use a wad between powder and patched ball to help save the patch and form a seal, which in itself adds a step in the loading - does not compute.  Save a step but add a step?

The rest of the story.
Took several takes to get it on video. I had loaded the rifle the first time with powder planning to get out and shoot it this PM.
But the son did not get the first take. My little digital can be a PITA and I had not properly instructed.
I pulled the ball then handed him the gun to go to the shop for another for sure 535 new from the box.
While gone he dumped the powder having forgotten it had powder in it, I then loaded the thing with no powder but got a good take.
Pulled the ball and then simply flushed it with a bunch of wd-40 through the vent to wash the powder out. Then set it muzzle down to drain out the last of the WD40.
Go to the computer and its just not going to work. Decide its too big a file so I try to take a smaller one by setting the resolution down on the camera. (Ha!)
Now I cannot get a ball in the thing 3-4 tries. Now I have shot 530-535s interchangeably for about 20 years just as I am loading this so I am  WTFO?????
Finally get one down and it runs down tight loose tight loose like its going down a bore with tight spots. Looks bad on video and is not typical.
Pull ball.
Next one loads fine. Checked ball and patch before loading too, still just under .021 and .535.
It MUST be something in the WD40 that caused this. Perhaps some reaction with the neatsfoot oil????
I came close to wondering it I should just write off the entire thing. The bore had been stored with G-96 which is silicone based. The first and second ball loaded normally after wiping the bore out 2-3 dry patches. I have loaded perfectly dry bore (degreased with alcohol) with the same components and no trouble.
What would cause this I have no idea. Has to be something in the WD 40. The solvents maybe? I not dry patch it before putting in the ball since I was going to pull it anyway.

Last video is the same size but I got it on the site OK(?) Figures...

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: No cone
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2009, 06:04:59 AM »
   Dan,
 I appreciate what your are doing,but I'll stick to my non/PC short starter. Gives me the willys seeing a ramrod torqued up like that.You've proved an important point though,it can be done on a simply crowned muzzle. Thanx

This is the rod made with the gun and it was at least 10 years old, but mostly unused when I got it about 1990. Its 7/16 tapered to a 3/8 tip on the ball end.
I have never broken a rod doing this. I have had broken rods. 2, one was a cross grained shotgun rod and I stuck it in my hand, just through the edge of the heel, when I was a teenager. Learning experience, like the blown out nipple and the drum going through a screen door. The other was a nice straight 1/2" rod  tapered to about 7/16 that I broke at the National Rendezvous at Lewistown loading a barrel from a highly recommended barrel maker that was tight and rough at the breech and I broke a really nicely, made rod with the ball about 6" from having the ball seated.  >:(  Still irritated.
My fault though, I was really trying to get the gun done and did not check the barrel closely enough.
I screwed up, I trusted him.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Daryl

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Re: No cone
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2009, 04:18:37 PM »
The method you use was exactly the way I had to load that undersized bore with .028" rifling with the oversized ball and heavy patch on that Seneca run. I only had a 3/8" hickory wiping stick, but it worked.

Note in the film, Dan applies heavy pressure over a "period of time". This TIME factor of very important for loading in this manner. A fast push would most certainly break the rod as the ball does not have TIME to swage into the lands with the patch - a fast push on the ball will not move it.  A slap on a starter's know will force the ball in and possibly cut the patch if used in a muzzle with sharp corners.  In the .45 barrel I spoke of, that .457" ball would turn into an elongated short slug, round on both ends with a straight section in the middle. Please don't try to tell me tight ball/patch combos don't seal.  In Dan's bore, the elongation is much less, of course, due to the smaller ball/patch combo in ratio, but it's there to some extent or the 'engraving' of the ball by the patch and lands would be very narrow, not a short 'section' of the ball as happens.  The looser the combination, of course, the shorter the elongation of the ball to the point where there is none and due to not being tight, you'll need a wad due to the blow by of powder gasses - at some point. Blow by is what incinerates patches.  We've found no scorching of the patch when using "the formula" of ball patch combos we've been preaching these past few years.  The 'combination' works in all bore sizes and seems to be the place for starting to work up loads.

 Use of the Formula right off the bat with a new barrel eliminates having to try different patches when testing loads. One merely uses a .020" patch, ball .005" under ball and need only adjust the powder charge to find a very accurate load.  The combination, as I said, has worked in bores from .32 rifles to 11 bore rifles - any and all.  A nice smooth radius crown helps, of course as does the use of a starter as noted in other videos we've made, starting with Taylor's a couple years ago.