Hawken stuff

[Kevin Houlihan]

Taylor,
With such shallow screw slots in the escutcheon screws,will you be removing the screws and escutcheons for bluing/browning?
Thanks,
Kevin

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

No.  Once the metal and wood is polished together, that's it.  They receive no other finish...they're finished with the wood.  Another way to do this job would have been to cut a shallower countersink and file off the screw head slots altogether, making these inlays permanent.  But original Hawken rifles always show the slots.

[tim crowe]

Nice and neat craftsmanship , Taylor.

[gmerrell]

Taylor,
I'm building my son a hawken and this thread has been berry helpful.  My barrel is only 30" long 40 cal, I was thinking of only installing 1 pin on the barrel will that affect accuracy?

Thanks
Greg

[Clark Badgett]

No.  Once the metal and wood is polished together, that's it.  They receive no other finish...they're finished with the wood.  Another way to do this job would have been to cut a shallower countersink and file off the screw head slots altogether, making these inlays permanent.  But original Hawken rifles always show the slots.

What would be the method used to color the metal? Or was it normal that they were left in the white?

I guess they could be browned on the stock, but would one would need to be super careful while applying the solution.

[Dave B]

From what I have heard. The barrels were charcoal blued. the trigger guard,  breach and breach tang were color case hardened. Not sure on the triggers possibly case colored as well. The Hawken rifle at the Museum of the fur trade in Nebraska has some original finish still intact to tell the tail.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

This is one of the pictures I've posted before of the last Hawken rifle I built - a pistol gripped model.  You can see the various finishes on the steel, ie:  case/pack hardened, rust blued, and left bright.  The escutcheon plates on originals may have been case hardened - don't know.  But they were not blued or browned, as far as I can tell.

[Clark Badgett]

Thanks Taylor. I actually like various metal finishes on rifles. Ads even more interest.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

One key:  I built a Hawken rifle back in the early 80's using a 32"  barrel, one key and a murtle wood stock.  It was every bit as accurate as any rifle I've made.  The one key did not effect accuracy.

About using diminutive barrels to build a Hawken rifle:  unless you're making a 'made for local trade' Hawken, which usually had smaller calibres and finer barrels (not as beefy), it will be difficult to get the architecture right.  The plains rifle almost always has a barrel that is a minimum of 1 1/16" AF and may be as much as 1 3/16" or larger.  These are robust and voluptuous rifles - not your usual squirrel rifle type.  

[Daryl]

I do not believe that you can build a 'true' plains S. Hawken rifle that is only 8 1/2 or perhaps even 9 or 9 1/2 pounds. Taylor's own .62 with the tapered barrel, is close to 11 pounds. Buddy Ron shot that one today & well at that.

[Mike Brooks]

Nice Hawkins rifle.....

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Thank you St. Michael!!

[oldtravler61]

Let's not get carried away now!

[Old Ford2]

I do not believe that you can build a 'true' plains S. Hawken rifle that is only 8 1/2 or perhaps even 9 or 9 1/2 pounds.

He uses helium in his manufacture!
Fred

[Dphariss]

I do not believe that you can build a 'true' plains S. Hawken rifle that is only 8 1/2 or perhaps even 9 or 9 1/2 pounds.

He uses helium in his manufacture!
Fred

First you would have to define "true".
This rifle weighs 9 pounds. Its a circa 1830 J&S. I would call it a plains rifle.
http://collections.centerofthewest.org/treasures/view/firearm_rifle_jacob_and_samuel_hawken_st_louis_mo_j_s_hawken_half_stoc

There are others that were made with shorter barrels that probably weigh 8ish but all my reference stuff is still boxed.

Dan

[Daryl]

Yes Dan, it most certainly is a plain's rifle & the name on the barrel surely identifies it, doesn't it.  I did not know ANY of decent calibre were made that light - but - are there any S.Hawken rifles that light? Just wondering.

[rich pierce]

That J&S has a lot of character. Really like it. Seems pre-classic.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

That rifle you presented, Dan, appears to me to have had the barrel bobbed, by about 10 or 11 inches.  That would raise the weight on the original configuration to well over 10 pounds, I would think.  It's not the overall weight that makes the rifle, it's the diameter across the flats, and the length.  Nice seeing pictures of originals.

[smylee grouch]

That rifle Dan pictured looks like one from the Dr. Ken Leonard collection. The late Dr. had one of if not the largest collections of Hawken rifles known. He was a member of the same collector group I belong to and he was considered the authority on Hawken rifles at one time.

[Roger B]

This thread, with some expansion, would make a great "how to" for a Hawken rifle builder.  Hint, hint.
Roger B.

[Clark Badgett]

This thread, with some expansion, would make a great "how to" for a Hawken rifle builder.  Hint, hint.
Roger B.

I agree. Taylor has a way of clearly explaining things. Between this, his related tutorials and his other Hawken threads, he could put together a really nice PDF type of booklet.

[SteveK]

I think it would be interesting if you have the time to show us how you make your own nosecaps. They look like a challenge to me.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Steve:  making your own nose cap leaves you many more options that trying to make a casting work.  To make my Hawken two piece cap, I made a steel former to replicate the tip of the forestock minus 1/16" of wood.  I used 1/16" steel sheet, formed the rod groove, and hammered over the tapers on the tip.  Then I fitted a second piece of steel to close the front, and silver soldered them together under red heat.  Finally, I filed out the steel in the end to accommodate the barrel.
I've been using castings from MBS on Herb's recommendation, but they need quite a bit of work to make them work.  They are cast for a 1 1/8" bbl. and for a tapered barrel, they need to be 1 1/16" approx. So  they need pinching to close on the barrel, but it's easy to do.  then they need to be wire feed welded in the octagonal opening so that I can file fit them to the barrel and have enough steel to match the underrib.  If you use a machined solid rib such as those sold by TOW, they're fine as cast, but with a rolled sheet metal one from Rice, or a milled hollow rib from MBS there isn't enough height in the cap from the rod groove to the bottom flat of the barrel.  So the welding.  The two piece is easier to make and use, but cannot be pack hardened, because of the silver braze.

Roger and Clark:  I have no interest in 'expanding' this thread to make it into a PDF booklet.  I just wanted to touch on a few of the features of Hawken rifles that might be leaving question marks on some folks minds.  Apart from these, much of the building is very much the same as any other muzzle loading firearm.  And the way I've presented is simply my way - arguably not the best way either.  I'd be pleased to have others present alternative methods - builders such as Dave Rase, Don Stith, Louis Parker, and Herb.  A friend of mine is currently building a Hawken for himself.  He made a jig that attaches to the barrel to align the deep hole drill for cutting the rod hole without using the rod pipes and rib, as I do it.  It's ingenious and works perfectly, and can be adjusted so that the hole parallels the bore rather than the bottom flat.  This leaves more wood on the bottom of the lower forestock - a plus.

[Vomitus]

   Yes, it would make a good tutorial on the Hawken rifle.

[Whaleman]

Taylor, Back on page two you mentioned using red heat to modify the front trigger. It almost looks like you flattened it some while bending it some. After doing this was any heat treating needed for the trigger? Would a turbo map gas torch be hot enough to do this as the cross section is so small? Thank You, Dan