New project--American flint fowler--hooked breech?

[Hemo]

Okay, I'm about to launch into my next project, a flint fowler ca. 1760-1775. I've decided on an American black walnut stock, 20 gauge octagon-to-round 42 inch barrel, round-faced lock (Chambers English), brass furniture. I've got Grinslade's book on American flint fowlers, and I'm leaning toward styling a British influenced fowler (or officer's fusil, if you like, without provision for a bayonet--just don't want to deal with extraordinary barrel length for a hunting gun). In Grinslade's book, I'm drawn to the Dutchy raised acanthus leaf carving around the long rear trigger guard extension on the lower butt and behind the entry pipe. (BS-5 and BS-6, for those who have Grinslade's book). However, these guns have way-long barrels of 50-60 inches and are probably waterfowl guns. They also all have regular solid breech plugs.  What I'm going after is a piece which might have been made in New York or Philadelphia by an American maker looking to emulate the fancy style of the popular British guns of the era, which might include a hooked breech and barrel keys, and also a shorter barrel length for upland birds (or possibly round ball for deer), while still retaining some colonial Dutch style raised carving around the furniture.
Would it be descending too far into fantasy to combine English features of a hooked breech, keys, short barrel length with raised Dutch style carving? I have nothing against contemporary designs or even "fantasy" pieces, up to a point, but I like to keep within the constraints of historical possiibility. Any thoughts?

Gregg

[Mike Brooks]

I don't recall seeing any British styled New York fowling guns  with a hooked breech. That being said there must have been some made. Also there doesn't seem to be any shorties either. Probably because Manhattan Island didn't provide any upland game or deer to shoot. That area was the king of waterfowl and that's what they hunted. That being said, There were probably some shorter, lighter guns made for shooting passing ducks. I wouldn't go too short.

[Dphariss]

For the period you are attempting to follow I would not go shorter that 42. If you are going to go into the period then do the period. In America even the rifles of this period were generally "4 foot" in the barrel. Though "4 ft" seems to have encompassed anything from 40 to 50".

Dan

[Hemo]

Thanks for your input, guys. Looking at Grinslade's book on American fowlers, I don't think I see any with hooked breeches, and very few with barrels less than 50 inches. (Mike, I looked at the very nice fowlers on your website and see you don't appear to use a hooked breech, either.) The look I am going for is on these examples, all made in Britain:
www.ambroseantiques.com/flongarms/lord.htm
www.ambroseantiques.com/flongarms/holden.htm
www.ambroseantiques.com/flongarms/peele.htm
All three of these have hooked breeches, which rise slightly above the barrel plane and allow a shallow notch for a rear sight of sorts, which I find rather attractive and maybe useful. The barrel lengths on all three of these guns ranges from 39.5 to 43 inches. Though at least a couple of these guns have attributed use in America, they are clearly Georgian British in design, and don't have the raised buttstock and forearm carving I'd like to use. Maybe I'll just have to be forgiven for indulging in a little historical fantasy if I combine both styles!

Gregg

[rich pierce]

Not directly related but there's at least one Bucks County "rifle" (most of them were smoothbores) with a hooked breech. And there is an oddball colonial rifle gun in Rifles of Colonial America volume 2, #120, that is fowler-stocked but has a rifled barrel and has a hooked breech.

More closely related is a beauty of a gun that might just be the "money" for you.  It was featured in Muzzle Blasts September 2006.  It has a 44" full octagonal barrel, in .60 caliber, smooth, fowling gun style, stocked in curly maple, pierced sideplate, hooked breech, typical English fowler buttplate and guard, British style caving on the tang but not up to British standards in execution, and believe it or not, a 4 piece brass patchbox.  I'd definitely get that MB article if I were you.  I could lend it to you if you cannot find it.

[Hemo]

Thanks, Rich, I'll see if I can't get hold of that article. I assume the gun you're referring to is a contemporary build?
Yes, I was aware of the very fancy Verner "rifle" with a hooked breech.  Couldn't have been too many of those!

Gregg

[rich pierce]

Gregg, the gun in MB is a 1770's-1780's original and a dandy.

[Hemo]

Rich, I tried to find the 2006 Muzzleblasts article online on their website, but I'm not having luck. Is there a trick to finding old articles?

Thanks,

Gregg

[rich pierce]

I look in my 3-ring binder.  Not sure what others do.  If you contact the NMLRA office they may check on copies of old issues for you.  But I'd be happy to mail it to you on loan.

[Mike Brooks]

Thanks for your input, guys. Looking at Grinslade's book on American fowlers, I don't think I see any with hooked breeches, and very few with barrels less than 50 inches. (Mike, I looked at the very nice fowlers on your website and see you don't appear to use a hooked breech, either.) The look I am going for is on these examples, all made in Britain:
www.ambroseantiques.com/flongarms/lord.htm
www.ambroseantiques.com/flongarms/holden.htm
www.ambroseantiques.com/flongarms/peele.htm
All three of these have hooked breeches, which rise slightly above the barrel plane and allow a shallow notch for a rear sight of sorts, which I find rather attractive and maybe useful. The barrel lengths on all three of these guns ranges from 39.5 to 43 inches. Though at least a couple of these guns have attributed use in America, they are clearly Georgian British in design, and don't have the raised buttstock and forearm carving I'd like to use. Maybe I'll just have to be forgiven for indulging in a little historical fantasy if I combine both styles!

Gregg

I have used hooked breeches in the past but rarely. They are an expensive option and I don't get much call for them. Those are nice english fowling guns BTW.

[smart dog]

Hi Hemo,
I own an original London-made fowling gun made sometime during the 1760s-70s. It was restored by Jim Kibler and probably spent most of its useful life in America.  It has a hooked breech also known as a standing breech.  The sighting hump and groove is very handsome and useful.  The barrel 39" tapered round of about 14 guage.  It has barrel keys all of which are pinned (captured).  It actually makes little sense to use a hooked breech without also using barrel keys because the purpose of the breech was to allow easy removal of the barrel for cleaning. Tapping out small pins likely would result in stock damage.

dave   

[Hemo]

Thanks to all for your input! I just got a 42" octagon to round 20 gauge smoothbore  barrel made by Colerain. (Not the Griffen profile.) At 4.25 pounds, I felt that this barrel was a bit heavy, especially at the fore end, and the wall thickness up front seemed unnecessarily excessive. I've been looking online for other lighter barrel options, but haven't found anything. Does anyone know of a lighter, thinner 20 gauge fowler barrel? (Maybe the Colerain Griffen profile, but these don't seem to be available at present.)

Thanks again,

Gregg

[James Rogers]

Gregg,
IIRC the Griffin, Spanish pattern barrel that Colerain makes uses the same OD for both the 20 and 16 bores so you would need to get the 16 or 12 bore to have a decent balance. Coning the inside of the muzzle will also make the barrel look much better and also give it an additional historical touch. Here are two Colerain Griffins of same bore size.

[Hemo]

Gregg,
IIRC the Griffin, Spanish pattern barrel that Colerain makes uses the same OD for both the 20 and 16 bores so you would need to get the 16 or 12 bore to have a decent balance. Coning the inside of the muzzle will also make the barrel look much better and also give it an additional historical touch. Here are two Colerain Griffins of same bore size.

I agree, coning the muzzle certainly improves the appearance. I'll have to check and see if the 16 gauge has the same OD as the 20. If so, that may be the way to go.

Gregg

[Mike Brooks]

Gregg,
IIRC the Griffin, Spanish pattern barrel that Colerain makes uses the same OD for both the 20 and 16 bores so you would need to get the 16 or 12 bore to have a decent balance. Coning the inside of the muzzle will also make the barrel look much better and also give it an additional historical touch. Here are two Colerain Griffins of same bore size.

I agree, coning the muzzle certainly improves the appearance. I'll have to check and see if the 16 gauge has the same OD as the 20. If so, that may be the way to go.

Gregg

The 16's and 20 both have the same OD. I have built a pile of 16's this year all using colerain barrels.