Author Topic: Installing butt plate,technique,survey  (Read 10886 times)

Offline StevenV

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Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« on: November 23, 2015, 03:22:28 AM »
I have included some pics of recent butt plate installation and as our previous builder who just recently posted pics of installation I too say jee haw that this part of gun building is behind me. The reason for the post is: curious to the technique and time spent by some of builders who post here. I have built around ten guns since 1993, for the hobby of it not to generate income although I have charged to finish one persons gun they started and two others I kind of charged to build. Work gets in the way of living but still at this hobby/passion of mine as time permits.
It took 20 to 24 hours to install butt plate on first couple guns and now I am in the 10 hours to install butt plate range. I still think this is too much time what are some of the times for some of the more seasoned builders?
My technique is I do not cut the top off , I leave wood under the entire butt plate when I install. I place butt plate on plank, draw contour to inside of butt plate. I then band saw the pencil line and begin, inletting top down (tang) first when about 90 to 95% finished down I then inlet sheath (back) in towards lock when about 90  to 95% done I then go back and forth, down and in til finished. At the onset I will use 1/2" chisel to remove "bulk" wood then to finish it is many many many times of inletting black , remove very thin slivers, inletting black remove thin slivers with 5/32nd chisel again and again until no gaps drill and install screws and let the fun begin! Could my issue be lack of familarity (not making enough guns) or is there something else I am missing or is 10ish hours not bad time for a "hobby" builder ?  Thanks for your input ahead of time.            Steve

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2015, 03:54:28 AM »
Steve you are to be commended on the detailed work you've accomplished here.  I spend about an hour inletting a butt plate, after it is filed to 'ready' stage.  But I do not go to the trouble you have...not even close.

I bandsaw the inside lines of the plate, and rough fit the return so the plate will roughly sit on the stock, oriented to the centre lines.  then I draw a line around the outside of the plate, and with a big gouge and a heavy mallet, I remove wood to within 1/8" or so of that line.  Inside the line by again about 3/16", I use a fish tailed gouge and remove the ground so that when I'm fitting, I do not have so much wood to deal with..only the edges.  So the return is inlet down and forward until the vertical part comes into contact in the upper corner.  Often, wood has to be removed from the toe area so that the whole plate will move forward enough to contact in the corner of the return.  When the return is down and parallel to the top of the comb, and the butt plate is in contact for about a third of the way down from the corner, and the toe is in contact for about a third of the plates height, the rest of the plate will be very close to fitting.  I install the screws, and with a small ball peen hammer, I tap the rest of the plate onto the wood...gently.  The brass only has a few thousandths of an inch to go to make a perfect fit, but it saves hours of time, tapping it down, removing the black, tapping it down, removing the black, und so wieder.  I think I stole this method from John Biven's collection of articles for "Rifle" magazine,  in the last century.

But let me say, I admire your patience and stay with it attitude.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2015, 04:03:32 AM »
Hi Steve,
My initial reaction is to urge you to remove far more wood from the buttstock before inletting the buttplate.  The less wood you have in thickness, the less you have to remove to contour the stock to the buttplate and the easier it is to see how you are progressing.  I don't worry about fitting the wood under the return very well except to make sure I remove enough wood so the buttplate fits down properly.  Long rifle buttplates are pretty easy and it takes me a couple of hours.  A fowler buttplate takes a bit longer.  Finally, let me suggest that you are installing your plate much too early in the build.  You should shape the butt much more so you can actually evaluate how the positioning of the plate should go relative to the contours of the stock.  Now, if you eventually decide the plate should be angled more or the comb lowered, you have a problem.  I urge builders to not rush to install hardware except for the barrel.  Do some shaping first, hopefully based on a good drawing or mental concept of the finished gun. 

dave
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 04:11:40 AM by smart dog »
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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2015, 05:06:27 AM »
I never went to the extreme you did to inlet that butt piece.   When I would do something close,  I would spend 6-8 hours on the actual inlet.  I am just not inclined to spend that much time any more given the number of fine contemporary and originals builders that do and did it the easy way.     The last inlet took me less than 2 hours.   Obviously, I am not as good as Taylor.
 

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2015, 06:33:01 AM »
Could be the photo but it looks to me like you have "toe in". This is not really desirable.

Dan
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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2015, 06:42:46 AM »
   I'm in no way in the same league as most builders that frequent this forum. It's my hobby and I build for myself.  Having said that, my method is to get the stock much closer to finish shape. I hold the butt plate to the stock and draw the contour with a pencil.  I do not have the luxury of a band saw, I use a coping saw to rough cut the shape of butt plate. I bastard file then get closer to actual shape using the roll end of a belt sander. I then go to a drum sander on a drill.  When I've achieved the correct contour I then go to the lengthy process of using a candle to blacken the inside of the plate, tap it on, remove the high spots.  Takes me all day and then some.   :P

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2015, 03:46:27 PM »
You sure made alot of work out of that job. The only place you need wood contact is along the edges. It takes me 1/2 hour to do a buttplate like that, unless I'm having a bad day.




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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2015, 03:50:07 PM »




I have read some folks say they leave a bunch of wood humped up under the buttplate so it doesn't move around. Doing it my way I have discovered once it's screwed down it ain't goin' no where. :P
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline crankshaft

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2015, 05:05:09 PM »

 Note to self:    file the inside of the casting to get it all square.
 And when I screw it on it usually pulls on way or another..aaaarrr.
 (Note to Self..check the holes are drilled straight.)

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2015, 09:49:05 PM »
 I agree with smart dog.  You did a fine job but it will be a lot easier if you remove a lot more wood from around the outside of the butt plate before you begin.  
You can see where Mike Brooks beat the heck out of the butt plate with a hammer but that is the best way to do it.  
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 09:53:25 PM by jerrywh »
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2015, 10:24:57 PM »
(Note to Self..check the holes are drilled straight.)

On one rifle, not the only rifle, I got the rear BP screw drilled crooked. So I drilled it out big, glued in a piece of maple. Drilled it again for the BP screw. Unfortunately, that was also crooked. Drilled and plugged again, and got it on the third try. Phew.
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2015, 10:29:15 PM »
Oh man Tom, been there done that!!!  The really frustrating "screw ups" are the times I drill and install the top buttplate screw, and it pulls the return back away from the comb.

dave
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Offline David Rase

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2015, 10:46:47 PM »
(Note to Self..check the holes are drilled straight.)

On one rifle, not the only rifle, I got the rear BP screw drilled crooked. So I drilled it out big, glued in a piece of maple. Drilled it again for the BP screw. Unfortunately, that was also crooked. Drilled and plugged again, and got it on the third try. Phew.
That is why I went to gimlets to drill wood screw holes over a hand held drill.  I can center punch the hole and then start the gimlet until it supports itself.  Then I can continue to walk around the gimlet checking alignment and making necessary adjustments as I continue to screw the gimlet in.  My success has improved immensely and the extra time it takes to use a gimlet is minimal.
David

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2015, 11:35:18 PM »
I had a vodka gimlet once I think.
 Did you get a package from me Mr. Rase?

Crooked holes......I've done a bunch, both top and bottom. Not so much anymore. But, now I'll probably do the next 1/2 dozen in a row crooked.... :P
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2015, 11:52:43 PM »
I think I read somewhere that if you drill a small pilot hole just a couple of thousands forward of the straight up and down position then when you screw the bp screw in it cams the bottom of the screw against the counter sunk portion of the screw hole and forces the forward portion of the but against the wood instead of forcing it back and leaving a gap. I guess you still have to drill and screw straight though.

Offline PPatch

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2015, 12:36:32 AM »
I too use a gimlet because I feel it gives me a lot of control. I will start the hole with the gimlet then switch to the power drill to finish it after I"m in 3/8's or so. I am doing steel butt plates here, have not done a brass one since I did the Lancaster several years ago, so pounding on them is not practical. Careful filing of the inside surfaces of the plate is a must.

Getting the wood removed and profiled for the plate goes pretty quick with a tenon saw and the bandsaw but a butt plate takes me a good while to arrive at the zero gap finish, a half day or more with man many lamp blackenings and chisel scrapings. After I cut the wood to profile I then smooth and shape with a rasp if it is needed. Once I have the butt plate return oriented to the centerline and with a smooth (ish) surface I then begin to bring it in and down often just using a 3/8's wide chisel to remove small slices or scrap whichever I feel is best. Once she's at this stage, a good start, the plate only showing small gaps I continue to blacken, fit and remove the high spots by chisel scraping only until it fits. Then its time to do the screws and I too have had to redo them, but the last two guns I've used the gimlet to start the holes with no problems.





dave

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Offline t.caster

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2015, 01:10:00 AM »
I use the same method as Mr.Brooks, but I might be a little more anal about the details. First, I get the barrel and lock inletted and usually the trigger too, although once the lock is in you can spot the trigger location pretty close. Then I can determine the trigger pull length without any suprizes. I also like to layout a vertical centerline (actually perpendicular to the top flat of the barrel) down the back and follow it closely, to make sure the toe of the butt plate doesn't wander (toe-in or out) one way or the other.
Usually takes me up to 2 hrs. to finish a buttplate installation. Except, my current Lehigh barngun project won't take me any time at all :D
Tom C.

Offline David Rase

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2015, 01:14:57 AM »

 Did you get a package from me Mr. Rase?

Why yes I did Mr. Brooks.  Should be sending it back your way tomorrow.  Would of got it out last week but we had a big wind storm up here in the Pacific northwest last week.  Lost power for a couple of days.  Power poles snapping off etc.  Spent the next couple days after power came back on putting things back in order.  We did not get it as bad as a friend of mine in Spokane.  His power has been out for a week and this morning he phoned to tell me it might be after Thanksgiving before he sees power.  Incredible.
David

Offline gumboman

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2015, 02:51:50 PM »
Where can one buy a gimlet to do this job? Looks like I can use one.

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2015, 03:42:38 PM »
Where can one buy a gimlet to do this job? Looks like I can use one.

This set of 4 may fill your needs.  Woodcraft says it works for screw sizes #2 to #4.  http://www.woodcraft.com/product/159695/gimlet-set-4piece.aspx

Mole Eyes
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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2015, 04:26:06 PM »
I bought a set of gimlets from 5/64" up from Garrett Wade.   Mine were made in France. 

Offline PPatch

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2015, 04:51:05 PM »
Garrett Wade is where I bought mine Mark. The same set.

dave
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Offline David Rase

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2015, 05:36:47 PM »
My first set came from Woodcraft.  I bought my current set of Gimlets from Wade Garrett because I did not care for the set from Woodcraft.  I like the Wade Garrett gimlets much better.
David 

Offline StevenV

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2015, 02:14:59 AM »
thanks to all who offered their ideas on inletting a butt plate, great pics Mike where did you get that butt plate is that a Reeves Goehering butt plate            Steve

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Installing butt plate,technique,survey
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2015, 03:58:57 PM »
thanks to all who offered their ideas on inletting a butt plate, great pics Mike where did you get that butt plate is that a Reeves Goehering butt plate            Steve
You guessed right. I don't recall what number it is.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?