carving area not cleaned up

[flehto]

Using  "workman like manner" of the original makers as criteria for present day builds doesn't seem to be very popular....judging from the work displayed on ALR. Many builds from various modern makers are examples of "near perfection" and the latest presented by Ed Wenger is a "perfect" example.  Have seen many MLers by top builders pictured on ALR and one is hard put to see any flaws in the pictures....perhaps the pics are a product of "Photoshop" and all the flaws have been eliminated.? Just kidding, but on many of those guns, it could well have been  judging from the excellent quality and evidently not using "workman like manner" as a quality assurance guide.....Fred   

[Acer Saccharum]

So much depends who the gun was/is made for.

If one is emulating a gun from the 18th Century, one must subject his work to the context of the times.

If you're making a contemporary gun that relates to the current times, loosely based on historical work, then the sky's the limit as to how the gun gets finished, how much bling goes on it.

I see Ed Wenger's German Fowler as a piece made in the spirit of the original work, finished very close to what the clientele of the day would expect for that level of quality.

An 18th Century working American gun seldom saw the degree of finish that you see on some of our current artists produce. Rare was the 18th C maker who finished his work to the degree we see today.

This gun building is an art form, and the builder gets to express himself through his hands, mind, and materials.

[conquerordie]

I would love to see all the artists on this forum build a workman like rifle or fowler. I don't think most would be willing to spend the money on such a project. It sounds like buyers would refuse them, and other builders would be embarassed to have made them, even though they would be identical to the craftsmanship that we try to emulate. Are we really trying to recreate these arms, or are we simply fooling ourselves?

As it's been discussed, even in the 1700's workman finish could be a thing of beauty on a fine grade arm, or much cruder on a more simple piece. My question is why must all arms from military muskets, to barn guns to rifles all be finished to such a high degree today? Is it judging like at Dixon's that make us all do it? Or is a competition between builders that make each one of use want to bring the finish on our guns to the next level?

Please don't take any of this as me knocking anyone here. I'm in awe of most here and continue to learn from you all. Just trying to wrap my mind around how we got to this desire of such high finish which in reality brings us farther away from originals.

Greg

[Acer Saccharum]

Greg, yours is a good question. I get it. I wrassle with these thoughts all the time.

I get a sense that the newer breed of collector is looking for art, for a story, for historic relevance, attention to detail, highest quality.

As far as judging at Dixon's, for example, I take this as a guide. One can learn a heck of a lot by entering a gun into such a judged event. Do not use the judgement as a mandate how you have to build for the rest of your life, but as a guide to improving your skills.

If you want to emulate 18th Century work, for example, study originals in museums and private collections where available.

If you want to follow the more contemporary track, seek out builders in the style you like. Go to gun shows, talk with these builders.

Don't accidentally use 21st Century ideals to build 18th Century arms.

[smart dog]

Hi Greg,
I don't think anyone collectively ordained we all should build to perfection.  Some individuals come close to that (Jim Kibler, Bill Shipman come to mind) but the objectives and skill levels of individual builders or desires of clients tend to determine the cosmetic qualities of guns.  In the photos below, I show 3 guns that I posted here in recent times.  All were built and finished within the spirit of a "workman-like manner".  I did not cut corners but I did every task efficiently, deliberately, with skill, but I did not fuss.  If the imperfection was missed or not important, I just moved on. On the second gun shown, I even strictly limited my time on the decoration to no more than 2 hours on each section.  That included drawing the design, cutting it, and finishing it to the point of staining.  The Brown Bess was finished with rasps, files, and then directly to scrapers, and the finish applied neatly but without much fuss over the details.  I personally like the appearances of all three and I notice that there is a market for that kind of appearance.

dave
   

[conquerordie]

Dave and Acer,

These flintlocks look spectacular, with any little flaw that came along while making it. This is what I picture as period correct finish. You mentioned names like Kibler and Shipman as the leaders in the "perfectionist" class of builders. Their rifles are literally pieces of artwork.  Not knocking them at all, but I picture that rifle in a display or locked in a vault, not in the hands of a reenactor, trekker, or hunter. Not to say someone isn't hunting or shooting them, they just seen too good for that.

My humble guns are not in either class.....yet. I continue to try. I think the better than extraordinary finishes confound me because I am not capable of them, and the clientele who look for this are not people I'm familiar with.

Acer, some day I hope to enter a piece for judgment at Dixon's. I'll take your advice, learn from it, but not let it stop me from creating what I want.  I'll just be able to do it better.

My next project I'm picking a period piece that is simple, but but I want to focus of honing my stock shaping and cleaning up around some simple carving.  The architecture of the stock is where I strive to be a perfectionist. I believe that is the most important aspect as to making a piece "feel" right.
Greg

[Mark Elliott]

I was wondering if Snapper could show us some examples of his work.

[bob in the woods]

If you watch the DVD of Mark Silver, stocking a long rifle with hand tools , you can see the finished product i.e. the end result of his labour. He explains the effects /surface finishes etc of the process and I simply can't begin to describe this as " unfinished"   There are facets visible, and you can clearly see the evidence of very sharp tools being used, but there is a charm /look to the overall piece which can't compare to what I consider to be an "overly finished " gun.  Obviously, there is a market for both of these ,but I think we need to dis-spell the notion of approving of sloppy work. Some of the contemporary works I've seen are absolute works of art and the level of skill and workmanship border on perfection. [ but in a contemporary  way  ]   Much of Eric Kettenburg's work would serve as an example of what I prefer in a finished gun.

[oldtravler61]

To me I can appreciate the skill an artistic talent that so many of you have. Your guns are true masterpieces. Far beyond my capabilities. But yet I can enjoy the barn guns, the poor boy style like a soddy- daisies style  etc. I like a hunting gun that a nick or too gives it character. But my dream is to build a rifle like Mike,Ed,Acer,Jim an so many others here. An if I did not mention your name I apologize because I admire all of your abilities an what you can do. Mr Kindig was so right when he called them a true American art form.

[PPatch]

Is this what we are discussing?



It, a german hunting gun, is featured on Art and jan's blog this morning - 12/2/15. Looks like a darn good workmanlike job to my eye, I love it. The design is well conceived, balanced and expertly done.

Rifle by: Christoph Josef Frey München, around 1770 featured on the Contemporary Makers Blog.

dave

[Acer Saccharum]

Here is a close-up of the carving on a Hauschka fowler in the Met collection. There are areas which are very tooley, but I don't know if this happened later on or was created like this. If you have a dull scraper the wood fibers actually get compressed. The surface looks smooth, until years later the compressed wood comes raises up to its natural state. Use sharp tools.

[smylee grouch]

That looks like a nice gun Dave but is it camera angle or is the butt plate curved the wrong way?

[PPatch]

That looks like a nice gun Dave but is it camera angle or is the butt plate curved the wrong way?

I believe that is just the style smylee. check out this Louis Jaley french flintlock at the Met

http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search/24929?rpp=30&pg=1&ft=flintlock&pos=2&imgno=0&tabname=label

dave

[smylee grouch]

Yes I see, a true work of art for sure. Thanks for the link on that gun.

[Mike Brooks]

Don't accidentally use 21st Century ideals to build 18th Century arms.

DING DING DING DING! Acer wins the prize!
You can use 21st century tools but not ideals. There is definitely a mind set to some of the best work that gets posted here. And by  "mind set" you may be surprised what I consider "best work" that I see here. Of course we all like different things.

I have to approach this stuff with a "workman like mind set". I only have just so much time to devote to a gun and make any money on it. As Bill Clinton is apt to say " I got bills to pay". I can't sweat details and work the price niche that I work in. I fell I'm pretty realistic about where my market is, I'm never going to get rich doing this but I think I can deliver a working and convinceable piece of art at a certain price that works for me and my market. Even at my level of finish there is alot of stress involved....had to go on anxiety meds 15 years ago just to continue.

[Mike Brooks]

Is this what we are discussing?



It, a german hunting gun, is featured on Art and jan's blog this morning - 12/2/15. Looks like a darn good workmanlike job to my eye, I love it. The design is well conceived, balanced and expertly done.

Rifle by: Christoph Josef Frey München, around 1770 featured on the Contemporary Makers Blog.

dave

This is a helluva good gun, right up my alley. I especially like the big honkin patch in the cheekpiece!
 The whole gun looks like it was put together in a workman like manner by probably several highly talented craftsmen that did this work every day.

Post Script.....
 The curvature of that buttplate is a fairly common thing for euro guns of that time period. I find it pretty charming.

[Boompa]

In a video demonstrating his carving technique Homer Dangler made a comparison of current builders to those back in the day.  I cannot quote him but it was something like, The old timers made functional rifles with some art carved into the stock.  Current builders make artwork that shoots. I've built or remodeled several rifles but I'm no artist and not even an advanced hobby builder. I don't find a few tool marks to be all that offensive.   

[smart dog]

Hi,
This is a great conversation but I am bothered by the notion expressed by some that "today's makers" do this or that. Today's makers express and incredible diversity of styles and approaches.
Some make modern muzzleloaders inside out and others weave old methods, styles, finishes, wear and tear, etc. into their work.  Today's makers and their customers are not a homogenous group.  The DNA varies widely.

dave

[smylee grouch]

I don't find the curve in the butt of that gun offensive myself but was curious if that was a curve or if the gun was made that way. My choice of words might have been better. I think this is a good topic as there are so many different personality's building great guns and showing them on this site and you can see it on a daily basis.

[Acer Saccharum]

Smart Dog, I understand your point. I hope I don't come across as 'this is the right way', for that is not my intention.

I agree completely that we are a diverse group, and our taste in guns varies as much as anything else in life.

You cannot dispute what a man likes. I may not like what you like, but that's OK.

[rich pierce]

To me it makes sense to try to emulate original work which was quite diverse.  If I was building a Bonewitz or the Fessler rifle (musician's rifle) or RCA 42, or a JP Beck, I'd want the finish to be representative of those originals.  If a type G grade gun or NW gun, or a Brown Bess, the level of finish appropriate for those as originally made.  But there is always the temptation for the hobbyist to take extra care in finishing.

[Acer Saccharum]

I think we make a lot of assumptions on the ALR, for example 'everyone is interested in emulating originals' when they may not be.

That said, emulation and reproduction of originals are two of the main interests/intentions of this site.

I ought to expand on the thought 'Don't accidentally use 21st Century ideals to build 18th Century arms' , in that many of us do not have access to original guns, and our libraries are not very deep. But we are hungry enough to take a stab at building, and work our way into carving, often with really knowing what we are doing. I did this, so I know. So we sometimes use another builder's contemporary piece as our model. We will often apply 21st century techniques, styling and finishes to our own work, because contemporary pieces are very accessible in comparison to original guns.

As one gets deeper into this study, a passion for a certain rifle school can develop. Suddenly the history and culture where this school developed becomes fascinating. This can lead to making connections with like-minded artists or collectors. Road trips ensue, income drops, wife divorces you. Turn back while you can.

[snapper]

Mark

If I had any examples of rifles with carvings on it I would certainly post pictures for you.  I have never done any carvings on anything I have built.

Currently out of town for work and don't have access to my pictures of rifles I have built or finished.  If you really want to see pictures of my finish work I can post perhaps this weekend   

Not sure how that will help with this topic?

Fleener

[Acer Saccharum]

No need to post your work unless you are seeking critique or adulation.

Snapper, your question inspired a lot of conversation, and inventorying of my belief system.  My perspective slowly changes, often unnoticed, so it's good to review every so often.

[snapper]

I could post one everyone would get a kick out of.   It is a Vincent style rifle that is too fat.  I built it several years ago and could not see it then.    It is on my to do list this winter to fix.  It has never been shot.  Built it for my oldest son and school, sports and girls have gotten in the way. There is hope for him.  His girlfriend grand pa builds ML and I understand and she also hunts with them

Fleener