tightening a bridle hole UPDATE_PHOTO

[Whaleman]

On my Hawken build on the L&R lock the bridle hole and spindle shaft has way too much play. I can't weld and redrill. Can I carefully peen all around the hole from both sides and ream to fit better? Thanks Dan

[tallbear]

I've had good luck bushing the holes on LR locks with bronze bushings.I get the raw materials from Mcmaster Carr.

Mitch

[Bob Roller]

On my Hawken build on the L&R lock the bridle hole and spindle shaft has way too much play. I can't weld and redrill. Can I carefully peen all around the hole from both sides and ream to fit better? Thanks Dan

I don't know why they don't close up the dimensions on those locks. There is the potential for a good lock there but for some reason they seem to be indifferent to these odd little problems.A bronze or steel bushing will work
but it shouldn't have to be done at all.

Bob Roller

[Acer Saccharum]

Peening will close up the hole, but only on the outside. The hole will wear open in short order.

[andy49]

I had the same problem with 2 L & R locks. One was old and one was newer. I called them and they had me send back the 2 tumblers and  lock plates. They found the tumblers were not made right and fitted two new tumblers to my lock plates and problem solve without any cost but postage. They were very responsive to fix the problem.
Andy

[Pete G.]

They were very responsive to fix the problem.

I had the same experience when dealing with L&R. They have a good warranty and were quick to make it right, but it seems to me that if they could fix the problem, they could just as easily do it right the first time.

[ddoyle]

They are not unique in letting thier customers do the QA/QC they simply do enough volume to get chatted about. The fact that they can sell locks for 130 dollars is a bit of miracle actually.

[Mark Elliott]

That is a common problem on L&R locks and there are only two ways to fix it; make/install  a new tumbler with larger axles that you can fit to the plate and bridle, or put bushings in the plate and bridle.   I have used a bronze bushing on the plate and a large screw as the bushing on the bridle.    You have to be very careful on re-drilling the bridle hole or you will end up with a tumbler of axis.   That is another common problem with L&R locks.   Bushing is the solution to that also.    Currently, I am torn as to whether to bush or make a new tumbler, bridle, and sear that I can properly fit.   
   

[Whaleman]

Thanks everyone for your answers. What is simple for people with the correct tools in hard for people who don't. I sure would like a tutorial on installing bronze bushings in the plate and bridle. Maybe the next time one of you pros do this you could take a few pictures and post. I have a lot of questions. How much larger in diameter should the bush be than the final hole? Is it soldered or fit by heating the plate and hitting in cold? Is brass OK to use or only bronze? I saw where Bob Roller did some with little ball bearings. That would be great. Where would you find small enough ball bearings to fit? Thanks Dan

[Bob Roller]

Thanks everyone for your answers. What is simple for people with the correct tools in hard for people who don't. I sure would like a tutorial on installing bronze bushings in the plate and bridle. Maybe the next time one of you pros do this you could take a few pictures and post. I have a lot of questions. How much larger in diameter should the bush be than the final hole? Is it soldered or fit by heating the plate and hitting in cold? Is brass OK to use or only bronze? I saw where Bob Roller did some with little ball bearings. That would be great. Where would you find small enough ball bearings to fit? Thanks Dan

I have never used ball bearings in a lock but I have heard of someone who has but never knew the name.
Bearing grade bronze is #660 and I used a lot of it in years past for obsolete automobile automatic transmissions.I had some in small diameter rod that I made some fixes on locks with many years ago but they were antiques. I don't use them in new work because it's just as easy to hold a proper dimension as it it to screw it up so a bushing is needed.

Bob Roller

[Robby]

Waleman, I have fixed this problem both ways, bronze bushing and peening the hole diameter. By far the easiest solution is peening. I peen one side of the hole, then press the nub on the tumbler through, then peen the other side of the hole and force, press, the nub back through the hole again.It will be tight but a little oil and working it back and forth will get her going.After hundreds of shots I can't see where it has loosened back up. It may sound like a cheap and dirty solution to the problem but it works and works well. Why L&R doesn't address this and many other problems is a mystery to me. Sales must be good despite these nagging problems, think how much better they could be with a little more quality assurance. I know they have lost a lot of my business, but I do a lot of left handed guns and many times they are the only game in town. I always make them work and have had no complaints but it still ticks me off.
Robby

[Dennis Glazener]

How much larger in diameter should the bush be than the final hole? Is it soldered or fit by heating the plate and hitting in cold?

On the one and only lock that I bushed I made the bushing out of a piece of barrel I had, probably 4140. I drilled the plate out with an end mill if I remember correctly then turned the bushing to a few thousandths larger than the hole, forget how much. I put the bushing in the freezer and heated the plate and pressed it in. Sorry I can not remember how hot but I don't think I got it red hot (did it with a Mapp torch).

Sorry it was so long ago I don't remember much about it, probably just should have said I used the heat/cold routine! I worked fine for the time I had the lock.

A friend of mine, Sam Everly, now deceased, used to buy small aircraft roller bearings and use them on the tumbler shaft. Really seemed to work great.
Dennis

[Mark Elliott]

Sam Everly used to put ball bearings into the plate for extra special large Silers he built.  I don't know where he got them.   I use round bronze bearing stock I buy from MSC.   It is a press fit.   You drill and ream the hole in the plate .002" under the bearing stock.   I then hammer it in, cut off and file the excess.   Then you have to drill and ream for the tumbler axle.   You use this hole as a guide to mark the center for the bridle hole.   I have used my final drill bit to mark the bridle in the past.  If I had it to do again.  I would drill a much smaller pilot hole and use that to mark the bridle.   Your plate MUST be setup absolutely perpendicular to your drill press arbor.    I clamp mine up in a two axis adjustable vise with special little wood blocks to hold it all.   I use a little machinists square to make sure the plate is perpendicular in two axis.   

[Whaleman]

Thanks guys, this is great info! Since I don't build many guns I try for the top level of perfection I can get to with not much experience. This is my second L&R lock. The tumbler axles on the locks are "as cast". You cant do anything to them as the gap will only get bigger if you polish them. I know this might sound stupid but I wish you could buy the lock with the plate and bridle holes located but not drilled. Maybe a small pilot hole. Then I could smooth and polish the cast tumbler and drill the holes to match. I would pay way more for this then the way they do them now. Everything else could be done just the plate and bridle holes to be drilled. I would pay a stupid amount more for this as the bushing is way harder for me. Thanks,Dan

[Mark Elliott]

Thanks guys, this is great info! Since I don't build many guns I try for the top level of perfection I can get to with not much experience. This is my second L&R lock. The tumbler axles on the locks are "as cast". You cant do anything to them as the gap will only get bigger if you polish them. I know this might sound stupid but I wish you could buy the lock with the plate and bridle holes located but not drilled. Maybe a small pilot hole. Then I could smooth and polish the cast tumbler and drill the holes to match. I would pay way more for this then the way they do them now. Everything else could be done just the plate and bridle holes to be drilled. I would pay a stupid amount more for this as the bushing is way harder for me. Thanks,Dan

Chambers locks have the parts properly fitted.   You should take a look at them.

[Acer Saccharum]

Bob, I think ball bearing may not take the beating that the sudden go-stop, load/unload that a lock dishes out. They are made for rotary motion of a much kinder nature. The actual contact between ball and race is very small, I would not choose ball bearings for this kind of loading.

Your choice of bronze is excellent. THAT can take a beating.

[ddoyle]

yeah and polishing the fouling off each ball and the race would get old quick

 

[Bob Roller]

Bob, I think ball bearing may not take the beating that the sudden go-stop, load/unload that a lock dishes out. They are made for rotary motion of a much kinder nature. The actual contact between ball and race is very small, I would not choose ball bearings for this kind of loading.

Your choice of bronze is excellent. THAT can take a beating.

I have only done a FEW locks with bronze bearings and they were for friends that had locks that weren't much to start with.I try to keep tolerances on my new work to .001` or less.I drill and REAM,flooding the reamer with tapping fluid.Dry reaming will soon ruin the reamers and guarantee an oversize hole. Just this past week I replaced the reamer I used for the sear screw on all locks I make after 20 years of use.I know that production work has to compromise when common tools are used in our small shops but it CAN be improved on with a little caution.

Bob Roller

[Mike Brooks]

My warped jr.high sense of humor really wants to run with this.......

[Acer Saccharum]

My warped jr.high sense of humor really wants to run with this.......

Go back to your bench, Brooks.

[Vomitus]

My warped jr.high sense of humor really wants to run with this.......

I missed comedy hour, shucks!
Bridal vs, bridle,lol

[bgf]

Thanks guys, this is great info! Since I don't build many guns I try for the top level of perfection I can get to with not much experience. This is my second L&R lock. The tumbler axles on the locks are "as cast". You cant do anything to them as the gap will only get bigger if you polish them. I know this might sound stupid but I wish you could buy the lock with the plate and bridle holes located but not drilled. Maybe a small pilot hole. Then I could smooth and polish the cast tumbler and drill the holes to match. I would pay way more for this then the way they do them now. Everything else could be done just the plate and bridle holes to be drilled. I would pay a stupid amount more for this as the bushing is way harder for me. Thanks,Dan

You might be able to buy the plate and ream out the tumbler hole. I don't know about the L&R plates, but the chamber's plate I bought had a slightly undersized tumbler hole.  Call L&R.  They are usually quite responsive and helpful, and I think they are really trying to do better lately. 

[Bob Roller]

Thanks guys, this is great info! Since I don't build many guns I try for the top level of perfection I can get to with not much experience. This is my second L&R lock. The tumbler axles on the locks are "as cast". You cant do anything to them as the gap will only get bigger if you polish them. I know this might sound stupid but I wish you could buy the lock with the plate and bridle holes located but not drilled. Maybe a small pilot hole. Then I could smooth and polish the cast tumbler and drill the holes to match. I would pay way more for this then the way they do them now. Everything else could be done just the plate and bridle holes to be drilled. I would pay a stupid amount more for this as the bushing is way harder for me. Thanks,Dan

You might be able to buy the plate and ream out the tumbler hole. I don't know about the L&R plates, but the chamber's plate I bought had a slightly undersized tumbler hole.  Call L&R.  They are usually quite responsive and helpful, and I think they are really trying to do better lately. 

The L&R plates have a slightly under size tumbler shaft hole.I ream them to .294 for the tumblers I make.
My approach to lock making is not that of a production shop and I tend to think everyone has a lot of tools
but know better after frequent posts I see here.
Bill Cox,owner of L&R is one of the most honest and accommodating men I have ever known and I am sure he will rectify any problems with any lock that comes out of his shop.

Bob Roller

[oldtravler61]

L-R will back there locks 100 percent. Why they let this stuff out is beyond me. Was a quality control inspector for years. Why they don't listen to their customers. Just doesn't make sense to me. Just make them right the first time!

[Bob Roller]

L-R will back there locks 100 percent. Why they let this stuff out is beyond me. Was a quality control inspector for years. Why they don't listen to their customers. Just doesn't make sense to me. Just make them right the first time!

I don't know if anyone at L&R has had machine shop experience or not. I have been told that
Bill Cox has made moulds for some of their items. I have had no problems at all with the external
parts I get from them but then the externals are not the mechanism which makes the lock what it is
or is NOT.I AM convinced they are not trying to make things that aren't as they should be but it can
also be inspection of the finished items is lacking.

Bob Roller