Author Topic: Swivel Breech Flintlock  (Read 4718 times)

Tonyhd98

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Swivel Breech Flintlock
« on: December 09, 2015, 06:05:39 PM »
Good day all, I just finished a Swivel Breech Flintlock Rifle and I'd like to get some critiques on my short comings. I'm not looking for a stroke just critical observations. I'd like to get better and not just get by. The brass trim behind the cheek piece hides one of my mistakes. I got a little aggressive with a hand saw while profiling the butt stock. It's not traditional but it was necessary. Thanks in advance, Tony.

The action is here:  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=36515.0











« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 08:50:14 PM by Tonyhd98 »

Offline runastav

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Swivel Breech Flintlock
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2015, 06:25:14 PM »
Nice :)
Runar

ddoyle

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Swivel Breech Flintlock
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2015, 07:38:44 PM »
I like that the lock is on the proper side.

Offline Bill Paton

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Swivel Breech Flintlock
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2015, 11:51:28 PM »
Hi Tony,

In all my studying of original and contemporary swivel breech rifles, I don’t recall ever seeing a lefty! You are to be admired for producing that! My left-eyed son has to put up with my right handed  guns, and I will never have the skill, patience, and determination to make for him what you have made. Congratulations.

You ask for comments on your build, and I would like to provide some. Keep in mind that I am a student of and hunter with these Kentucky double rifles, and not a builder. I have a lot of learning  to go, but have picked up ideas over the years about them and will share with you some thoughts on your rifle.

The nose cap nicely follows the unique molding at the edge of the “barrel channels” (I assume these are actually on “panels” instead of on a  double-inlet fore stock). The thinness of the edge of the molding looks a bit delicate for holding up to my style of hunting use.

Your modern sights are great for shooting, but detract from the appearance for the rifle in my opinion. The original low smooth beautiful sights look great but don’t shoot so well, I admit. This comment has no correct answer and your sights are certainly best for shooting.

The pan/frizzen plates of the Waters swivel breech action are admittedly awkward and make for challenges in forming the panels around them. Making your fore stock panels more delicate in front of the frizzen plates would improve the looks on my opinion.

On the lock side of the butt stock, the transition between the wrist and the comb would look better if the “groove” followed the line of the wrist instead of traveling up toward the comb. These points might be useful for your next build.

On the cheek side, the transition might do the same, and would require making the cheek rest narrower, thinner, and lower on the stock. If you need the cheek rest that high and large for function, then function trumps aesthetics in my mind, but usually it can be made smaller without sacrificing function.

The notch in the front of the comb is unusual and distracting to me when I view the gun. If it needs to be there for function, so be it, but if not, your next build would look better with a more conventional comb in my opinion.

The Waters lock and swivel action are relatively late flintlock styles, while the Moll-type two piece box, the butt piece, and trigger guard seem earlier to me. If they feel best to you for use, than again function trumps style.

Your second to last photo shows remarkable mirror-like polishing on the butt piece. Am I seeing the photographer in it?!!

Again, you have produced a rifle way beyond my skill level, and I commend you for it.
Congratulations.

Bill Paton
Kentucky double rifle student
wapaton.sr@gmail.com

Tonyhd98

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Swivel Breech Flintlock
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2015, 02:05:52 AM »
Hello Bill,

Thank you so much for sharing your depth of knowledge, I truly appreciate your time and thoughts.

This rifle was made for a customer in TX, the customer had some thoughts as to how he wanted it to appear and I of course obliged him. He is a left handed shooter and not many builders would accommodate him as I have. As I now learn from your appraisal, I really need to study with more focus!

You've made many fine points and I'm thrilled that I didn't unintentionally make something for the fire place. LOL The nose cap is a two piece affair and the fasteners are hidden under the ramrod. I've seen so many welded or soldered barrels and I know the welded barrels have not been normalized and will fail at some point in a very unpleasant way. Lots of stress is created when steel is welded.

I slotted the barrels to receive two parallel tangs or projections on the caps. The tangs are less in length than the slots which allows each barrel to expand and contract individually. This arrangement allows me to keep the barrels together at the muzzle and really stiffens up the barrel assembly when rotating. I think this is far safer than what I've seen.

I will consider beefing up the moldings if I get to make one for a hunter/shooter. Yes, I made two side panels. I lack the skill, talent and patience to have made the fore-stock from one piece of wood. I've seen it done but this doesn't allow slimming the wood to the barrels and it appears to be an inletting nightmare. I've opted for convenience.

I agree with you regarding the sights.

When you say “ Making your fore stock panels more delicate in front of the frizzen plates” do you mean thinner or less wide?

I see your point regarding the “groove” on the comb, good point.

I made a device for measuring trigger pull length, cast off/cast on, with an adjustable cheek piece locator. The dimensions and location of the cheek piece is based on the customers anatomy. Yet another fine point.

Good point on the comb shape.

I went with the customer's desires on the box, butt plate and so on. It's difficult to steer a customer away from what they like.

Yes, you see the photographer in the reflection on the butt plate! LOL

Thank you again for your thoughts and insight.

Cheers,
Tony

Offline Old Ford2

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Swivel Breech Flintlock
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2015, 03:20:41 PM »
Hi,
You must have had one very pleased customer!
The question of sights has troubled me for some time.
The very low front bead, and tiny rear sight of yesteryear ( poor visibility!) or raised sights for clear vision and less heat distortion.
Which way to go? Duh!.......... Easy choice!
Tough challenge to make a twister, you done good!
Fred
Never surrender, always take a few with you.
Let the Lord pick the good from the bad!

Tonyhd98

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Swivel Breech Flintlock
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2015, 10:07:36 PM »
Thank you Old Ford2!

Online Ky-Flinter

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Swivel Breech Flintlock
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2015, 02:52:08 AM »
The following reply was misplaced.  I found it and thought it might be helpful.

Hi Tony,
You did a nice job.  The swivel action looks solid and you shaped the forestock panels very well.  You need to work a bit on the butt stock.  Narrower flats around the lock and sideplate would help make the wrist look less slab sided. That is a hard area to get right and particularly so on swivel breeches.  Your cheek piece also doesn't blend nicely with the curves of the stock.  The forward edge should blend into the line that defines the comb and the hand rail.  The photos below show what I mean about the lock panels and the cheek piece.

dave



Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

Tonyhd98

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Re: Swivel Breech Flintlock
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2015, 05:25:11 AM »
Thank you Ky-Flinter,

Every time I see a picture of what could have been I think, why didn't I think of that! Well I've got a long way to go and I wish I had delved into this endeavor years ago. I really appreciate your time and thoughts. I don't have any excuses I just don't have very much experience, this is my first build. I marvel at the engraving examples and details brought to my attention. Those guys are incredibly talented and I only dream of something like that on my builds. It's the subletsies and details that make a rifle a rifle and I love reading of my shortcomings, this is how we get better.

The pictures you posted are a stunning example of of pure classic rifles I only dream of coming close to. Again, I thank you for your time and thoughts.

Best regards,
Tony

Online Ky-Flinter

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Re: Swivel Breech Flintlock
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2015, 05:40:16 AM »
Tony,

I wish I could take credit, but the reply was written by Dave "Smart Dog", one of the Masters here.  I am but an apprentice.

-Ron
Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie