Engraving Transfers Question

[Jim Kibler]

Transfers have nothing to do with copying others work.  It's just a way to get a design on the metal.  It's not always easy to establish a complicated design directly on metal. 

[smart dog]

Hi,
I mentioned this in a post long ago: learn craft first and the art will come.  There is a reason why art students spend a lot of time copying the work of masters.  You have to create an encyclopedia in your head of methods and designs used by others.  When you have that down, you can branch out on your own much more easily.  There are some who will never be artists but it is the rare artist that did not work hard to develop his or her craft and skill.  Copying the work of others helps develop those skills and ideas.  Later some will rearrange the furniture of their mental libraries of ideas and produce unique art.  Others never will but that is OK.

dave   

[tallbear]

No true artist wants to copy someone else.

This may be true but a certain percentage of my work is "Bench Copies"where I strive to make exact duplicates of an existing piece right down to the last detail with the exception of my signature/touchmark being on the piece.While what i'm doing may not be considered "art" by some It is a challenging endeavor and one that I make NO apologies for !!!!!!!!!

Mitch Yates

[Acer Saccharum]

This is a topic that merits discussion.

I hold that there are no rights or wrongs in art. Therefore, no one here is wrong.

We are all striving to make beautiful objects. Art is a subjective field, and everything depends on personal taste, what I will build, what appeals to me etc. I am not wrong in what I like. I like certain styles of art, others, not so much. Whiskey, women, cars, lathes, all have their certain styles and curb appeal. There is something for everyone.

Not all men are created with the same abilities. Do honor your talents, and make the best of them. Don't compare yourself unfairly with someone else, for we are all at different levels of skill. Keep improving yourself, and learn from others whose work you admire, be it antique or contemporary.

Copy artwork to your hearts content. When I say 'copy', I mean make something 'in the style of' or similar to the original. This is how we learn. Not only do we train our minds by really studying someone else's work, but we train our hands, our muscle memory, when we make our renditions. As a smart dog once said, learn the craft, the art will come. Your ideas will find their way into your work, your hand will show its mark. As you learn to trust your intuition, the art will flow. Copying is a tool that should be in your toolbox. Without it, you'd be making guns that had no relation to our past.

[Captchee]

 I use Demar varnish  pretty much like Acer suggested. However I don’t use acetone .
 I print my patterns  on parchment paper . Let the  varnish  tack up to the point it very near dry .  Burnish the  back side of the pattern and your done .

[Acer Saccharum]

I tried parchment on my laser printer, and it does NOT work. The patterns release too easily, and they come out all smeared.

I should try it on my inkjet.

[Pete G.]

"Inspired by" is one thing; copying is another. I am reminded of a Christmas present I received when I was about 14. It was a membership in a fine arts club where about every six weeks you would receive a printed canvas of one of the old master's paintings and about a hundred page book with extensive instructions on mixing and applying the brush strokes to the various areas. The first canvas was Van Gogh's 'Seascape At Saintes Maries' . I had great fun and really enjoyed the work, but when finished, the problem arose of what to do with it. It was not an original, and it was not my own work either, so instead of hanging, it was rolled up and put back in the tube. The second canvas was never started and membership in the club was canceled.
 
Granted, a copy of a rifle is a bit different in that you can still shoot and enjoy the rifle and get the flavor of what it was like to have journeyed back in time to handle the original, but at the end of the day, it is still a copy of someone else's work. In a way it is sort of like an apprentice working in the style of the master, which is OK if you use the knowledge gained in order to develop your own style, but who among us has developed that? There are a few like Herschel and Ian Pratt who have developed their own style which is instantly recognizable, but I find myself doing things more like "in the style of" and developing a rifle that could have come out a gunsmith's shop in a particular area at a particular time, and it seems that most builders tend to follow that path.
 
The bottom line is to practice and learn to draw. Once you get that down you can use others works for inspiration and start to develop your own patterns that not copies of someone else's work. The saving grace in all of this is that a lot of the original builders were not necessarily masterful at engraving, so if your efforts come up somewhat short of the engraving on an Italian shotgun it is just fine.

This rambling really has nothing to do with the original question of transfer patterns, but it is raining here this morning and I don't want to get wet walking to the shop.

[Acer Saccharum]

I draw all the time. I am inspired by the work of others. I look at everything, soak it up, remix it, and make something new. I use the work of others as a language. Work of the generations and cultures before us is like words to me, which is put together in different ways to create new and different meanings, but using the same old words.

Copy? No, I really don't much copy others' work, but the concepts, yes, I try them on. A little of this, some of that, mixed with my own ideas, but all within a believable setting.That's what I try for, anyway. Gunmaking to me is a little like writing a novel, setting a scene, composing a painting or a piece of music.

Importantly, copying is a valuable technique to get to understand another's work, a culture, a time period. You can get to really understand what a man had to go through to accomplish a certain result. In this way it's a valuable tool.

If you are saying, 'well, I copied this, but it's not really mine', then it's time to express your own ideas. This is a good thing.

[tallbear]

  I guess we all come at this from different directions.A good portion of my work is "historic reproductions".If they don't look exactly like the originals they are not considered correct and many customers are'nt interested.With the exception of carrying my touchmark/signature my goal is to "copy" every detail.I use period tools (I often have to make my own) and techniques as you can't replicate 18th century items without using 18th century methods.I spend hours studying how things like engraving and carving are cut and work to make my cuts the same manner.My goal when doing this is with the exception of the signature the two items side by side are as identical as possible.
     We copy tools, techniques,barrel dimensions,locks,stains ,finishes,cast hardware from originals etc. etc....,why then draw a line at the engraving and carving.
    I have no issue if someone does not wish to consider what I'm doing as "art "(I have never considered myself an artist)but consider what I do craft. The notion that we somehow should not "copy" when basically we are all copying to some extent a little disingenuous.Everything we do is a copy of someone who has gone before(including the 18th Century American Gunmakers who were copying European work).Where the line is draw is a personal decision!!!!!!

Mitch Yates

[jerrywh]

 Transfers have nothing to do with copying other peoples work although it is possible. The rule is if a design is changed by 10% it is a new design. However there have been so many designs created over the past couple of thousand years that it is almost impossible to come up with something totally unique.  Everything we know is a compulation of acummulated knowledge plus a rare ocassional tiny new idea.
 As related to transfers there is a way to transfer lazer prints but I am not up on that proceedure.  I personally use a inkjet printer and only certain ink and printers will work real well.
 I use a HP ink jet and it must be set to print in black and white only.  A color print does not tranfer well at all even though it may look black and white. Only certain transparency film will work real well. I use Mitsubishi pictorio film. There are others but I see no advantage in looking for them since the pictorio works so well.
  I also use Tom Whites transfer fluid but it can be made by diluting  shellac with alcohol about 5:1. An ounce will last about 20 years.
  you can buy an old Epson C88 printer for about $50.00 and the ywork great.

[Mark Elliott]

I am sorry for stirring the pot.   I come to gun building as an artist with some formal training as such.   I made a decision very early to forego a more traditional arts & crafts career for gun making.  I am not at all sure I made the right decision.   It leaves me with some associated prejudices and insecurities.  I could have a lot more so say about this, but just let's say that I did not fully consider the transferring of designs as a tool for the master engraver.    For such as Jim and Jerry,  it is.  I apologize for any hard feelings.   

[tallbear]

 Mark everyone is entitled to their opinion.I am just pointing out that everyone has a different perspective/goals and find fulfillment from different aspects of all of this.

Mitch

[Acer Saccharum]

Mark, I never took your comments as anything other than jumping off points for my thoughts.

Mitch, good point that every one comes to this sport from different directions. You (and your customers) are interested in an accurate historic representation. I come at this from a historical fiction viewpoint, where my work is a compilation of a certain culture at a given time.

[jerrywh]

Mark.
  There is nothing to apologize for. Both ideas have existed for hundreds of years. Engravers have been sizing and transferring patterns for centuries.  Before the era of printers and Photoshop engravers sized by using the graph system. Frank Hendrix a European trained engraver of world renown made a video of this method before his death. I learned that method in Art school in the 50's also. Transfers were done by wax transfer with graphite or smoke. Almost all patterns were drawn by master artists in Europe in the 16th to 18th centuries. Some of the pattern books still exist.
   The Frank Hendrix Video can be obtained on FEGA website. It is also a very good thing for beginning engravers as he teaches hammer and chisel.
 A set of his pistols can be seen in the book steel canvas.
  Every time a new tech. method comes out the old school guys resist the new.
 

[Captchee]

I tried parchment on my laser printer, and it does NOT work. The patterns release too easily, and they come out all smeared.
I should try it on my inkjet.

I have an older,  Brother 1240 Laser printer  that i use Acer . . If the varnish is not dry enough , yea it smears . I let it dry to the point that  it just barely leaves a finger print .
IE almost what would  seem dry to the touch .

 Now whats not good is the detail. But the reason for that is my printer  drivers only allow for 600dpi  and that’s if I trick the printer with different drivers . Standard drivers only go to 300dpi for that printer .

 i have never tried partchment in an ink jet . might work just fine  since the ink cant stick 

[Acer Saccharum]

My laser printer uses powdered 'toner', which is really a heat fusible plastic powder. I believe the toner is getting baked onto the parchment, but the image starts sliding around as it goes thru the printer. Some of the image sticks to the rolls, so it's messy.

Anyway, I should try an inkjet to see if that works any better.

[Mike Brooks]

I'm amazed at the work you guys go through. For those of you with the skill I suppose it is worth it. I don't think my skill level or my interest level will ever get me that far.  I can see all of this bother I suppose for euro work, but American engraving is pretty simple......
 

[Captchee]

 Dont know Acer . mine also uses toner . maybe it has something to do with the paper setting or something ?

I sometimes draw  patterns right on the piece as well mike . a lot of times I regret it  unless its something very simply .
  Using a transfer doesn’t mean your using someone else’s work . a lot of times I draw a layout  or several layouts . Then ill size those down  and make a transfer . .

[Chris Treichel]

I was taught to transfer from paper to metal using a very fine point punch to make lines of dots through the paper which is stuck to the metal with either wax or a simple glue. These dots can then be connected with the jewlers saw or with the graver, kiri bori or whatever.

[Acer Saccharum]

I can see all of this bother I suppose for euro work, but American engraving is pretty simple......

Thanks, Mike. That is a really good point.


I seldom use transfers on 'American' work. I freehand draw it, both the carving and engraving.

But things like lettering, reversing and scaling artwork, transfers are really nice. I usually draw my own art, then reverse it, scale it, make transfers. It's really nice for positioning art onto a piece, as you can move it around until you like the look of it.

This applies to jewelry, printmaking, etc, and not just gun work.

[T*O*F]

i have never tried partchment in an ink jet . might work just fine  since the ink cant stick 

Captchee,
It works but it is finicky.  The damar varnish and the ink must both be at the right drying consistency.  If the ink is too wet, it smears and if the damar is too dry it won't take.  Again, I think it's the ink that makes the difference.  I had an old Lexmark printer that worked fine and bought another when it died.  The new one wouldn't work.  The wife has a Canon that will work if I get everything just right.  I haven't tried my HP yet since I now use Tom White's system with it and don't have to fool around with all the aggravation.

[Mike Brooks]

Hey, I have nothing against the process, more power to those that use it. Maybe it's my lazyness factor.....
 If I were a really good engraver that would justify the process I'd probably pursue engraving modern guns, that's where the money is....

[Ric27]

Wow, that was an interesting study on a lot of different topics.

I really do not think that whether or not a guy copies designs or draws them free hand with quill pen has much to do with my original post. Transferring a design is just a tool like a file or a band saw. I know my engraving is about 97% better if I have something good laid down to follow. What is art or not art?........... well that is one deep pit

Thanks to everyone who commented. There is a ton of valuable information to be gleaned,
Ric