J Dickert on Gunbroker

[JTR]

If you can't appreciate it for what it is then you don't really appreciate the American Long rifle

I object to anyone telling me what I do or do not "appreciate".

Object? Then why do you come to the Antique Gun Collecting section and blast a rifle by one of the most prominent makers of Kentucky rifles? It's obvious from your posts that you know nothing about antique rifles or collecting them, yet you think you should be able to blast them and not get any flack back?

I have to admit that I'm a bit irritated. That rifle was put up for sale with a good description, yet half the people posting about it are complaining about nit-picking things. One complains that it's a half-a- rusted conversion. Another that the touch hole is too high. Another that it had been restored. Fact is that a lot of these old guns have gone through a lot of good times and more hard times. Collecting them is not for everyone. In fact you really need a sympathetic eye when buying some of them.
In the ad for this rifle, did anyone notice where the seller said to call him if you have any questions? Did any of you nay-sayer's call? I'll bet not,,,, it's just easier to complain.

I was interested, and I called. All I'll say is that the gun has an interesting history. The restoration isn't what many here seem to think, nor is it recently done.

So I'd like to make a deal. Some of the posters here are very much against restoration work and I can appreciate their opinion. So along that line, I have 6 rifles that I bought specifically to restore, but haven't done anything to them yet. They're nice guns, most are carved, some are signed, all are in as used and put away condition. I have about $16,000 invested in them, and if any of the anti-restoration guys really want to step up to 'save' them, I'll be happy to sell them to you for what I have in them!
Any takers?
And then I'll buy that Dickert.

Thank you,
John  

PS, Any thoughts on the interesting date and initials on it?

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Can you make out what the date and initials are? I was have trouble reading it.  I think I read 1781.

Coryjoe

[JTR]

Yes, 1781. A friend thinks the initials are NW.
By the way, the butt is 1 7/8" thick, not including the bit of dome on the patchbox cover.
John

[Dennis Glazener]

I really like the gun and would love to own it but at my age I could never justify buying it. When I left it behind our daughter would probably sell it at a yard sale!

Just out of curiosity where are you all seeing the initials and date? 1781 is really an early rifle and I would love to know that this one was made during the Rev War.
Dennis

[blienemann]

Gibster - thanks a bunch for posting the link.  The chance to study and learn from any old rifle, in any condition is a blessing for me.  I don't get to see or handle many.

Dickert built some very fine rifles over time - early, fancy, later, plain, contract military rifles.  He owned a barrel mill, and contracts often called for the locks and barrels to be stamped by makers, to hold them accountable.  I've often wondered how many of these Dickert barrels are on rifles made entirely by the man?  He partnered and subcontracted with many other stockers and locksmiths.  He bought barrels from the Christian's Spring shop, and probably bought and sold components with many others.  Then there are the restocks - the Alamo rifle might be one.

Sometimes I learn from the comments, but I always learn from photos of the old rifles themselves.  Wish they could talk - but I guess they do talk a bit.  Thanks and keep them coming.

[JTR]

Dennis, mr no gold pointed it out to me, and it's on the star on the cheek piece. Look close. I don't know how original, just that it's there. The thick butt bodes well for an early date, but the gun would have to be given a good look. The lock is an antique, but a replacement.
John

[spgordon]

Boy, you really need to blow those images up to see that date.

I don't know of any other Dickert that is dated. Or I am forgetting. Are there any?

For a substantial account of Dickert's career: http://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entry.php?rec=180

[mr. no gold]

There is at least one other Dickert rifle that is dated. It is the one owned by Audie Murphy and bears the date 1787 on the wrist plate. No one has contested the veracity of that inscription to my knowledge.
Dick

[louieparker]

There is also a Dickert that was converted to pill lock that is dated on the box.. I assume by the maker. As I recall its 1808.   

[Dennis Glazener]

Dennis, mr no gold pointed it out to me, and it's on the star on the cheek piece. Look close.

Thanks JTR, its there plain as day, may or may not be original but no question of the year.
Thanks
Dennis

[rich pierce]

I see no reason to doubt it came out of Dickert's shop. I kind of doubt that Dickert signed and sold barrels and other builders put his signature on the top flat. It does not make sense. Barrels from mills are often signed or stamped on the bottom flat.

[Ky-Flinter]

Before I post my question, let me say that my post is not meant in any way to malign this wonderful old gun.  I am but a neophyte student of the long rifle and my only intent here is to learn.

I was looking at this post last night, and looking at the pictures on GB.  I got out my copies of Kindig's "Thoughts" and "RCA 1 and 2" and was comparing the carving behind the cheek piece.  The carving on the GB Dickert seems very different than the Dickert examples in my books.  The carving on the GB Dickert looks more Lehigh to me, especially the scalloped edging on the c-scrolls and volutes.

I would appreciate hearing the opinions of those more knowledgeable than I on the differences I think I am seeing.  Could this be a period restock using the Dickert barrel, patchbox and other original parts?

Oh, and I would love to own this gun, just as she is.  Alas, wishes are not dollars.  Thanks.

-Ron

[DaveM]

To me the date looks like 1810 or 1817 written upside down under a "J" and other letter.  Looks like short diagonal hash marks at rhe top of each 1 when  looking upside down.  Maybe later owner marks? Very cool gun

[Buck]

Ky Flinter,
My 1st impression was the same, early restock (1815 or so) with Dickert hardware. However, I have a friend who owns a Dickert with the same features and it's the real deal. Bill Vance owns the Pill Lock Dickert, and it's a beauty.

Buck

[JTR]

A guy with hands on experience with the gun says the date is 1812.

John

[oldtravler61]

Schreck you are absolutely correct. 250 years from now I doubt very much of what is made now will be around. After looking at the rifle in-depth. The history behind the rifle might indure some of the price. An the rarity of a Dickert rifle. Imho

[Molly]

Well, just about a day to go and no "bids".  I just looked at Jackson Armory's total 8 page listings.  7 pages of 50 items and the last page of maybe 10 or so.  SO, we're talking  maybe 360 listings.  They have bids on only three items and all of those are new style hand guns or rifles.  Sig, Beretta, etc. and they do appear to be good prices for what's offered.

So might one conclude they are looking for the "one born every minute" with essentially all their listings?  That gun is WAY over priced.  It's their selling habit.

[jdm]

Well, just about a day to go and no "bids".  I just looked at Jackson Armory's total 8 page listings.  7 pages of 50 items and the last page of maybe 10 or so.  SO, we're talking  maybe 360 listings.  They have bids on only three items and all of those are new style hand guns or rifles.  Sig, Beretta, etc. and they do appear to be good prices for what's offered.

So might one conclude they are looking for the "one born every minute" with essentially all their listings?  That gun is WAY over priced.  It's their selling habit.

When selling an item . It is always easer  to come down in price than go up !

[Eric Kettenburg]

People can try to spin it any way they want but to put it in market terms, these things are going through a major correction right now.  Well most of them - the best, and the really interesting pieces, will always continue to command premium prices and command a very active market.  Pieces like this, on the other hand, will not.  Just because it's old doesn't make it great.  We all have our own opinions, I think it's a dog and boring as h***.  A dear friend just bought the spectacular J. Baum rifle for half of the 15K asking price and that rifle is about 3000X more interesting than this Dickert (to me).  All imho of course.  If this guy can get 15K for this thing, more power to him - there are a lot of fancy pants decorators who will buy old things like this to decorate some dude's 5000 sq ft home and could care less what it costs as long as it buys some bragging rights on the wall.

[Shreckmeister]

What spectacular j Baum rifle?

[Molly]

People can try to spin it any way they want but to put it in market terms, these things are going through a major correction right now.  Well most of them - the best, and the really interesting pieces, will always continue to command premium prices and command a very active market.  Pieces like this, on the other hand, will not.  Just because it's old doesn't make it great.  We all have our own opinions, I think it's a dog and boring as h***.  A dear friend just bought the spectacular J. Baum rifle for half of the 15K asking price and that rifle is about 3000X more interesting than this Dickert (to me).  All imho of course.  If this guy can get 15K for this thing, more power to him - there are a lot of fancy pants decorators who will buy old things like this to decorate some dude's 5000 sq ft home and could care less what it costs as long as it buys some bragging rights on the wall.

Eric: BINGO!!!

Stated very well and even though I claim no deep expertise I totally agree with you.  But as a non-builder and a gal I suppose I don't have credentials that support my views.  I also think I recall seeing a comment about things that are built today will not be around in 200 years.  I trust the author of that comment was speaking to "modern" firearms and not high quality replicas because if not he was completely wrong.  Works by you and many other makers will survive as highly valued works of art for centuries.  Some will be used up or fall into a spiral of abuse but many, if not most, will stand eternally as a credit to the makers as well as the people who owned and valued them. Sort of neat I suppose to think of a discussion in 2515 between several collectors if that is an original Kettenburg!  Put your mind in the smoke of the campfire listening to that discussion.  IT WILL HAPPEN!

Love your work!

[Eric Kettenburg]

The RCA gun, super long barrel and crazy box with the little locking mechanism, lots of super funky "dutchy" type carving.  Signed "J. Baum," I don't believe anyone has definitively placed the maker in the years since George offered some mild speculation about Harrisburg area or up the river.  Just went at auction, definitely an earlier gun than all the later Sam Baum rifles.

It seems to me that there is a HUGE disconnect right now between actual 'sold' pricing vs. private sale asking pricing.  I believe the optimism is much, much higher than the market realities for *most* pieces.

(Very kind compliment Molly, thank you!)

[Shreckmeister]

People can try to spin it any way they want but to put it in market terms, these things are going through a major correction right now.  Well most of them - the best, and the really interesting pieces, will always continue to command premium prices and command a very active market.  Pieces like this, on the other hand, will not.  Just because it's old doesn't make it great.  We all have our own opinions, I think it's a dog and boring as h***.  A dear friend just bought the spectacular J. Baum rifle for half of the 15K asking price and that rifle is about 3000X more interesting than this Dickert (to me).  All imho of course.  If this guy can get 15K for this thing, more power to him - there are a lot of fancy pants decorators who will buy old things like this to decorate some dude's 5000 sq ft home and could care less what it costs as long as it buys some bragging rights on the wall.

 Eric if you review my comments you'll see they have nothing to do with value and everything to do with appreciation of what is there.   The Dickert was found in Virginia had been in a family for 150 years and was a complete basket case it was restored initially  by someone who honored it's attic condition but then subsequently cleaned by someone else and reworked again.  what remains is what remains.  I could care less about the cost and that was my point   The gun was saved from the burn pile. The first restorer kept its original lock on it somehow that is now missing probably on some highly appreciated Dickert by this point

[Eric Kettenburg]

I'm not really trying to argue with anyone really, we're all going to have different opinions.  As far as the gun itself, I don't have much appreciation for it; I just think it's a dud.  Sooner or later, someone else may think it's absolutely "it" in which case buyer and seller will both be happy! 

[Buck]

Eric,
That sums it up right there, just depends on what you like.
Buck