J Dickert on Gunbroker

[JCKelly]

No bids

5 hr 50 min to go

[JTR]

Deleted by John.
Merry Christmas,
John

[mr. no gold]

There are 'opinions' and then there are informed 'opinions'. If anyone has problems with this rifle, they shouldn't buy it. Too many of the comments I see here denigrated a legitimate 200 year old rifle made by Jacob Dickert. late of Lancaster. Sour grapes, perhaps? "I can't afford it so I'll talk trash about it." Sitting here scratching my head over this. Go elsewhere and find one for sale. If you you do, just be sure you have a pocketbook full of money; the 'ask' on this one is significantly lower than the usual going rate for these.
After hanging around here for some time now, I have never seen anyone step up and make a purchase of a costly rifle on this site. Not sure why, because some good ones have come around from time to time. One reason no doubt is that money seems to be tight for most everyone, and then many others here are builders, or ML enthusiasts who aren't really interested in antiques. I'm fine with this perspective as that leaves that many more pieces for those of us who care.
As to John, he has standards that he sticks to, and will defend them with vigor. Like me, he has been a collector most of his life, (I have a few years on him), and he is a superb restorer. Once in awhile, he will even build a rifle. So, to impugn him is really foolish. Between us we have almost a century of interest in the KY Rifle. Each of us has a complete library of the published works, so I would say that he is certainly 'informed! And, when he speaks, he knows what he speaks of. We bounce info not only off of each other, but off of many recognized experts, dealers and collectors. At various time we have had 100 good rifles between us and have gained a consideable body of knowledge on the subject from having them.
Would I buy the Dickert in question? If I were looking for one, yes, I would! At almost 80 years of age however, I an not looking to add anything else. Just my thoughts on this subject.
Dick

[Buck]

"I have never seen anyone step up and make a purchase of a costly rifle on this site." Well put Dick.
Buck

[Molly]

If by "this site" you are speaking of Jackson Armory I feel there is a very good reason why.  They are playing the odds and looking for a long shot, dare I say, "sucker".  It's a common approach in some internet sales venues.  As I noted earlier, JA has over 360 to 375 listings on gunbroker and when I did my check only three had bids and all were common modern firearms.  I have sold a lot of stuff on gunbroker and I formerly sold a lot of firearms related stuff on ebay.  My speciality was the '73 Winchester.  I found "disasters" and broke them down for their parts OR attempted to sell the entire rifle on gunbroker.  I have watched a lot of JA stuff as well as many other sellers with their own web sales sites work the same approach.  It costs very little, in some cases nothing, to slap a listing on and see what happens.  You won't sell much that way but when you do it's a tidy profit.  Personally, I never had the stomach for that.  Provide good disclosure, offer it at a fair price and give a 100% money back guarantee.  I sleep well that way.

So it's back re-listed at the same price.  Still probably won't sell.  Funny to me that everyone who "loves" it has all sorts of excuses why they are not a player.  Shake it out any way you want... it's over priced and that is the most likely REAL reason.

[oldtravler61]

In regards to the Dickert rifle an other guns on this site. It all boils down to. Are you buying it for a collection an this would be part of it. To be handed down to family. Then maybe the price doesn't matter as much. But to most I believe it pertains to resale value. If an when you intend to sell it an  the profit you are happy with when you do An that like this one matters as to who made it. The going cost for that style rifle an how bad the buyer wants it. Sad but true it's usually about the profit. Imho

[Molly]

oldtravler, I think you are correct on all points.  To me it is also a matter of an objects immediate utilitarian use.  Spending money for something that serves a need in every day life is much easier to justify.  Spending money on an object which serves absolutely no fundamental need is a different matter.  Or at least to most "average" people.  Obviously all the drs, lawyers and indian chiefs might see it otherwise.  We are living in a day where the typical working stiff has maybe $5,000 in credit card debt, has a balance on the home and cars and is sending their 2.1 kids through school AND has accumulated net worth of near ZERO.  No matter how bad they may want something like this, or even a nice replica, it is almost impossible to qualify.  And if they try, the idea of being "always able to sell it and maybe make some money" pops up.

While I tend to be critical of this specific rifle I would not object to seeing it on my wall.  It does not make my socks go up and down but I can find a soft spot for it but I have long ago decide if I cannot shoot it I probably don't want it and that goes for Colts, Springfields and Winchesters as well.  And that's also why I only have one "nice" (but still a semi-disaster) original longrifle.  To say that these objects have a thin and shallow market is a gross understatement.

[JTR]

I formerly sold a lot of firearms related stuff on ebay.  My speciality was the '73 Winchester.  I found "disasters" and broke them down for their parts,

So you are one of those that tears an old gun apart and sells it screw by screw on ebay! Wow, certainly shows the respect you have for antique guns!
Sorry, but that simply disgusting!

If this forum had an 'Ignore' list, I'd put you on it. But since it doesn't, from here on out I'll just ignore you.

John

[Shreckmeister]

I have long ago decide if I cannot shoot it I probably don't want it and that goes for Colts, Springfields and Winchesters as well.  And that's also why I only have one "nice" (but still a semi-disaster) original longrifle.  To say that these objects have a thin and shallow market is a gross understatement.

   So why are you here on this forum to begin with.....Just for the fun of creating uninformed argument?

[Molly]

Why thank you John.  It so nice to have people say such good things especially when they don't have a clue about the specifics.  For example only PARTS were found in a box of odd lot items.  Or maybe frames completely encrusted in rust.  Fact is  there are and were very often firearms that simply were beyond restoration or renovation of any kind.  What do you suggest one do with a butt stock half burned or rotten and no frame? I think removal of the butt plate and screws and offering them an opportunity to live again on someone's restoration project is a noble endeavor.  

And I'm here mostly to observe the market AND to watch for goods offered for sale.

[Shreckmeister]

And I'm here mostly to observe the market AND to watch for goods offered for sale.

   Well come on in.  The water's fine, but you might want to get you toe wet before you
jump.

[Molly]

I follow the market.  I have detailed data on offerings, makers, prices asked, conditions, prices realized and several other critical items.  I do not ever plan on buying a firearm of any kind off the internet. (But that may change.) A buyer has little leverage in such a situation.  I'm no longer interested in selling but the game is acquire at the least possible cost when one is to be purchased.  Besides, I happen to live in a firearms "rich" part of the country so I don't need to chase all over when there is more locally available if and when I might want to buy.

But I have purchased many items from members such as shooting boxes, horns. pouches, etc etc etc.  So when I say "buying" I talking about that, not firearms as such.

And don't forget,  I have a direct link to Santa so you better be nice.

[Joe S.]

Wow,my two cents,it not like shes torch cutting perfectly good functional guns like them createns at that BATF then putting parts kit out there.There's a market for odd small parts to complete ones restoration, somebody's got to do it.Now if your one them that knows you need it and try to take advantage of your need and wants to gouge you that's another story.Seen that $#@* plenty,that *#)*^! me off

[rich pierce]

If anyone wants to talk about the Dickert instead of bashing each other, please go ahead. Otherwise the topic will be locked.

[JCKelly]

Auction closed Dec 20 with no bids.

An interesting rifle, if less than perfect condition. At least it has not been restored to the point that even its original maker might not have recognized it as a Kentucky, like some of the High Class Weapons - I dare not mention a name.
 
I would have been extremely pleased to hang it on my wall. Have one ATTRIBUTED John Haga & one ATTRIBUTED George Schroyer. Glory be, this one is actually signed!

Apparently, as this group seems to agree, priced too high for the current rifle market.

At 75 & retired I am not longer a gun collector. Well, a few weeks ago a nice long black Bodenheimer did knock on my door seeking lodging. Only Christian charity to take it in.

[Dphariss]

Auction closed Dec 20 with no bids.

An interesting rifle, if less than perfect condition. At least it has not been restored to the point that even its original maker might not have recognized it as a Kentucky, like some of the High Class Weapons - I dare not mention a name.
 
I would have been extremely pleased to hang it on my wall. Have one ATTRIBUTED John Haga & one ATTRIBUTED George Schroyer. Glory be, this one is actually signed!

Apparently, as this group seems to agree, priced too high for the current rifle market.

At 75 & retired I am not longer a gun collector. Well, a few weeks ago a nice long black Bodenheimer did knock on my door seeking lodging. Only Christian charity to take it in.

I would LOVE to have this Dickert. But I live on a fixed income even with my wife working (she got a whopping 1% raise this year)
I do find part of this thread rather amusing. Perhaps for reasons similar to those in your second paragraph.

Dan

[crankshaft]

I formerly sold a lot of firearms related stuff on ebay.  My speciality was the '73 Winchester.  I found "disasters" and broke them down for their parts,

So you are one of those that tears an old gun apart and sells it screw by screw on ebay! Wow, certainly shows the respect you have for antique guns!
Sorry, but that simply disgusting!

If this forum had an 'Ignore' list, I'd put you on it. But since it doesn't, from here on out I'll just ignore you.

John

    Note: she said "disaster".  That means different things to different people.  I'll take her word for it, a wreck.

[lexington1]

I personally like this gun. I do think it's rather expensive, but if I didn't have it's near twin I would be having sleepless nights trying to figure out how to buy it.  And no, I don't have a 5000 square foot cabin and hang expensive $#@* on the walls to brag. I just like these things......

[JTR]

I’d like to apologize for my part in disrupting the discussion regarding this Dickert rifle.

When I joined in 2008 there was a comprehensive group of active collectors here that very much enjoyed the collecting activity associated with Kentucky rifles. Since that time most of them have moved on, and seem to have been replaced with newer members that seem to be more concerned with opinions than actual collecting.
 
Getting old, and still interested in all sorts of Kentucky’s, I find myself uninterested in non-constructive or poorly informed criticism of these grand old rifles so will move on from this Antique Gun Collecting section with the rest of the old guys, and leave it to the new guys.

Best regards, John

[Robert Wolfe]

JTR - I wish you wouldn't. I've learned a lot from your posts.

[louieparker]

John

Some things and comments have to be looked over. Hard as it might be some times.
There are still folks here that appreciate an old Kentucky for what it was, what its been through and even what's left of it. I for one can find something I like in most of the worst of them. When I started collecting to even see a photo of a gun like the Dickert would have been a very special occasion. Today there are photos everywhere and lots of contemporary master pieces. These may make the new comer think they all should look New. Most of us know they don't. 
So I will  be looking for your post tomorrow !! LP

[sqrldog]

John
I too look forward to your comments  and shared knowledge regarding the early guns. I mentioned in an earlier text elsewhere about the thrill of just holding an original J P Beck at the 2015 CLA last August. I would be just as thrilled  getting to hold this Dickert, even if there are areas that have been reworked. Few of the surviving early rifles exist as they were made. Perhaps the Andreas Albrecht rifle in RCA should have been left as the remnant that Shumway photographed. Personally I like it restored to some simblance of its original appearance. Should rifles be left as rotted splintered relics? I think that is entirely up to the owner just as modifications were done by prior owners whether it was percussioning the flint rifle installing.a set trigger or shortening a barrel to make it easier to carry in a buggy or on horseback.  The owner has the option to do as he pleases wiith the rifle including pricing it when he decides to sell it. Just my two cents worth. Tim Cosby

[Tony Clark]

Stick with the forum JTR.

Anyone can set any price they want on anything and it sure doesn't mean they are "looking for suckers".

Really is a bad deal to step on a dog #$@* though it's so hard to get off your shoe. Ever notice that? Unavoidable at times though it seems if you're not careful.

Happy holidays.

[Buck]

John,
Some good advice from Louie, take it.
Buck

[JTR]

Wow! I've had a surprising number of messages and emails asking me to reconsider my decision, and well, being the poor politician that I am, have decided to reverse my previous decision and continue to enjoy this section of the forum.

Thank you for all the support, it's much appreciated,
John