Vinegar/Peroxide browning solution (pictures added)

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I read about using vinegar, hydrogen peroxide, and salt as solution to rust metal to produce a patina.  However I've never seen anyone mention it for use in barrel browning.  The recipe is found for other household crafts not gunsmithing.

Is there a reason why this would be a bad idea for gun barrel browning?  I thought maybe you could use a different type of salt if NaCl is a no-no.

[PPatch]

I suppose the only way to know is to test it on some steel. I have never heard of it but that don't mean much.

Welcome to the forum!

dave

[smylee grouch]

I think your solution would certainly rust your barrel but it sounds quite aggressive. I know some use a cold blue treatment followed by peroxide then a scotch pad rubbing to give it an aged look.

[T*O*F]

Common non-iodized table salt is mentioned in Angier's book on browning.  When it comes right down to it, anything that will rust steel can be used to brown a barrel.  Then if you boil it, you convert it to blue/black.  It ain't rocket science, but it all comes down to technique obtained thru experimentation.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

OK.  I just wanted to check before trying.  I have some 24-0-5 fertilizer in the garage I think I will use in  place of table salt.  I remember being told by the Mad Monk that chloride is bad for iron because that is what causes pitting.  If I read the label correctly the 24-0-5 should not have any chlorides in it. 

So if you brown something then dip it in boiling water it will turn blue? (like almost black, blue)

[rich pierce]

I'd stick to known formulas on any gun I'd put a lot of work into.  Maybe if you want to experiment, try on some scrap steel.  We can't predict for you how various untested formulas made up from whatever's in the house or garage may perform.  Let us know.

[JBJ]

I would be surprised if the source of the potassium (K) in your fertilizer were not potassium chloride. Very common and quite cheap compared to other K sources. Sounds like lawn fertilzer.
JB

[PPatch]

So if you brown something then dip it in boiling water it will turn blue? (like almost black, blue)

Dip, no, boil. And it isn't a blue but a black with brownish under tones. It is called Boiled Blue for some reason. The technique is a little more complicated than simply boiling too.

- Brown your metal to the degree you like
- use distilled water (I use well water which works for me), city water has chemicals you don't want.
- put your parts in and boil for at least 10 minutes, I give it 15.

If you're doing a barrel you must of course have a container that will take the whole length. Common house guttering is often used for this, you simple seal the ends and boil your water in it, I sealed mine with silicone and it works fine. You'll want to plug the barrel also, but you should have done that when you were browning it.

For browning I use LMF Browning Solution, it is not all that expensive and many dealers sell it. It is quite forgiving in use and creates a nice brown. If you are going to experiment do it on scrap.

In browning we do everything possible to control the process in order to obtain a smooth browning. Metal browns at a rate depending on prevailing conditions such as how much heat and humidity is in the air. You don't want your parts browning too rapidly as it has a tendency to made rust flakes, scab over, which will peal off the metal or at least cause a blotchy result, you want a slower rate of browning (rusting), and you card between browning sessions which according to prevailing conditions will take anywhere from 5 to 8 hours per session, this is repeated until you get what you are looking for.

After you feel you are done browning heat the metal to somewhere around "ouch, that's hot!" Then oil it liberally.

dave

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

JBJ,

Nope according to the label its K2O, not KCl. 

[Hungry Horse]

 A big part of the care taken by the old timers when browning a barrel, had more to do with fine grain rusting, rather  than using just anything that would rust a barrel. Many old recipes had at least some alcohol in it for just this reason. Browning solutions that create a course rough finish I would suspect aren't in the least authentic. Another reason many old recipes can't, or shouldn't, be duplicated is they often contained mercury in one form or another.

    Hungry Horse

[JBlk]

When I had my house fire, all of my firearms became rusted by the smoke and its contents.You might make a cold smoker and hang your metal pieces in that to see the result.

[Long John]

I have used vinegar and rock salt to brown a number of items.  It works, although more slowly than the commercial agents like LMF.  Commercial agents are, in my opinion, easier to control and produce more predictable results.  The degree of pitting you get has very little to do with the presence of chlorides, at least in my experience; it has more to do with how long the agent is left on before carding, the methods of carding and how the finished piece is washed between applications of agent and after the browning is completed.  For a while I was intrigued with how one would accomplish certain gun-making tasks in the early 18th century when many of the agents we use were not available to the back-country craftsman.  I learned that I could finish steel with simple vinegar and rock salt.  Both were available, dirt-cheap and effective for the 18th century smith.

Merry Christmas,

John Cholin

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

OK.  So I've tried a number of repetitions. 

Everytime I check on the progress the barrel looks a beautiful chocolate brown.  Then I card it with some coarse steel wool and I'm right back down to the grey blotchy metal.

Is the browning that delicate?  Do I need to run to the hardware store for some fine steel wool?

If it can't tolerate a light brushing of coarse steel wool how would it ever last normal use in the field? 

Or maybe this vinegar solution idea is the problem.  But lots of folks have said that anything that causes rust should brown the barrel. . .

[heinz]

Do not use coarse steel wool. Try 000 or O000.  You need to let the color and oxide layer build up a bit between applications.  That being said I do not like the chemistry of your browning solution. Try 10% ammonium chloride.  This is an 18th century solution

[JBJ]

Potassium is always isted as K2O equivalent on fertlizer bags. Just as phosphorus is listed as P2O5 equivalent. Has nothing to do with the chemical source of the nutrient - in this case K. Back in the dim past I used ammonium chloride solution and it will work. As someone suggested, there are a lot of possibile chemicals to use in browning. I seem to recall that Hacker Martin suggested the use of urine!
J.B.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

JBJ,
OK thanks.  Your correction seemed to have jarred a distant memory of mine.  Now that you mention it yes, I think that is how fertilizers are often labeled.  Oh well.  There doesn't seem to be a way to get away from chlorides, however it evidently is not as big a concern as I may have thought.  It appears that browning solutions are anything that works.

I picked up some OOO wool and we'll see if that helps.  I'll post picks when I get done.

[Karl Kunkel]

When I used LMF I just carded with a piece of rolled up denim.

[moleeyes36]

When I used LMF I just carded with a piece of rolled up denim.

Yes, that works very well.  Carding with the end of a piece of tightly rolled up denim, canvas, drill, etc. makes it easier to get even carding all over the metal's surface. 

Mole Eyes

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Hmmm.  Nope.  Something is wrong.  The brown just doesn't stick to the barrel.  It wipes off too easily.

It's not grease, no fingerprints, and I've thoroughly degreased it. 

[BartSr]

I use yellow mustard.

BartSr

[rich pierce]

Going to be hard for anyone to troubleshoot an untested home brew browning solution. Maybe you're getting exactly what that formula gives.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Rich,  yeah.  I am beginning to think it's just a bad recipe.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Ha-ha!

I googled "vinegar + salt + rust + remover" and found lots of home recipes to use vinegar and salt to remove rust. 

So evidently vinegar and salt can be used to rust iron, and to remove the rust from iron.  After reading a number of instructions for both, it seems that long soaks in vinegar remove rust, while those instructions for rust-patina's say to let it dry between applications.

My confusion came from reading some browning instructions to keep the barrel in a humid box.  Well, if you're using vinegar - DON'T keep it in a humid box.  Let it dry completely. 

Perhaps now I'll get somewhere.  To be continued. . .

[WadePatton]

I used to clean badly crusted iron skillets with lye (sodium hydroxide) and then tried using a vinegar rinse after cleaned.  NOPE, couldn't stop flash rusting.  Clean metal in the solution, would flash rust as you wiped it dry.  I quit using the vinegar.  A simple water rinse, heat, and oil is all that is really necessary. 

That's how I'd clean any now as well by the way.  But I don't let mine crust up.

You got it right when you said, whatever works is a rusting/browning solution.  Also, be ready to let things get a little bit ugly before you card them off.  Multiple rusts and cardings are usually used to get the best finishes to my eye.  Those are the faded/old brown/gray finishes.  I've seen some brown finishes that looked like chocolate too.  It's all up to you. 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

OK.  Here are the results of my project.  I have a .45 caliber Cabela's Hawken Hunter (or sporterized) that my 20 year old son uses and he complains that it bruises his cheek.  So I removed a bunch of wood from the comb.

As long as I needed to refinish the stock I picked up some cheap carving tools and made my first attempt at relief carving.  My boys are all accustomed to partridge style sights so I changed the stock sights out with a buchhorn and post. 

As long as I was changing sights and giving the stock a work-over I decided to file off the "lawyer labels" on the barrel which then necessitated re-blueing.  The challenge with this gun is that the ramrod rib is actually blackened aluminum (as well as the nose cap) so I couldn't just brown it.  I have used Plum brown before but wanted to try something non-commercial. 

So I browned the barrel using Peroxide/Vinegar/salt in a spray bottle.   Then I boiled the barrel in my 15 gallon beer brewing boil kettle.  Then I waxed it with Carnuba wax.

The upper gun is another Cabela's Hawken that I used as a "before" picture.  Then gun below it looked exactly the same before I gave it the work-over.