what kind of gun would some one own 1800 to 1852 period of time

[edwardc]

i know its some what of a weird question but i know some have brought up this type of question before

my 4 times great grand father  was born in 1780 in south west virginia 
some time around 1806  he married  and had with his wife 2  of 7 children while still in VA
 about 1810  they all moved to kentucky   and  then after a while about 8 to 10 years  they all moved to
indiana 

he passed away  in 1852 

He  was a farmer for most of his life 

we have a couple of family members ( by marriage ) who were in the american revolution  with  one being the brother of ethan allen

so assuming that he owned a gun at all what  would  you say ??

fowler  or small bore rifle

thinking of buying or having one built that might be close  to correct

[PPatch]

"fowler or small bore rifle."

Either one or both. The time period after about 1820 spans the introduction and popularity of the cap lock too. Before that he would have owned a flinter, and could have kept with one. There were a lot of nicely styled guns being made in SW Virginia back then. I would lean toward a fowler as being the most commonly owned gun, but a schimmel style, a plain but very functional rifle, would be a consideration also. If he owned a lot of land and was fairly well to do he might have owned guns reflecting his status, your more highly decorated guns.

dave

[edwardc]

Dave



thanks  for  the info

not sure  what his standing in the community was  or if he had a lot of wealth or not

i know whats left of the farm is in the hands of a family member  but not how much etc
with 8 children i would not think he had a lot of money

but one never knows

can  you explain schimmel ? style  or is  it just plain functional style

to date  i don't have a lot of info  as not many family records survived  on him

[sz]

Well he would probably have purchased a rifle or smoothbore when he was old enough to earn that kind of money.  I'd assume that would be about 16-18 years old at that time and place.
However it was common for very young boys to hunt and shoot, so he may have had a hand-me-down gun too.

What that means is that he could have had any gun used or made during the Revolution and clear up through the declining period of the "Golden age"

I should point out that a gun that is 40-50 year old is not all that old even today.

 Many of us have guns from the 1960s and they are in fine shape.  True, they are not used as much as guns were in that period, but it's also true that guns were treasured then, and were cared for as well as they could be.  There were many old rev-war guns used by southern boys in the Civil war.  At that time those guns were about 90 years old and still working.  Many if not most had been converted to the "new" cap-lock system by then but not all.

So if he had obtained a gun in Va in around 1800-1810 it would be a flinter, but it could be a rifle or a smoothbore.  If he used one that was passed down it could be about anything made in the revolution era, or the years that followed.

If I were you I would go through various books showing guns made around the turn of the century and pick those out that you like.  Contact a knowledgeable  builder and discuss these things with him, and you will get the gun you want. Also remember that it was ok then to have more than one, and it still is.

[nord]

As others have mentioned, much depends upon social status and personal wealth. There also enters that matter of practicality.

From the standpoint of a young man with family at the then edge of civilization I wouldn't be too surprised should it be found that this man owned a French or British musket. These were rugged weapons which would toss just about anything one rammed down the barrel. For short range work either type would be hard to beat.

Assuming I might be correct, then I doubt the old smoke pole would have been discarded. More likely the family would have seen the need for a rifle but kept the musket. I'd make no assumptions about a small bore gun as there would still have been an abundance of big game in the areas this family lived before 1830. Certainly not a 60 caliber gun but probably not smaller than somewhere in the 40 caliber range would fill the need. Further, on the very edge of civilization a practical man would have chosen flint ignition because caps might not always have been available.

By 1830 the world was beginning to change. Goods were moving westward easily and many of the hardships of frontier living were a thing of the past. I would expect a man of fifty who had done well in life to have accumulated a bit of money  and a nice rifle would have been somewhat of a status symbol. Just a guess but this would not really have been what we might consider a "working" gun unless one of his older firearms had needed to be replaced.

I'd opine a fairly small bore percussion piece. Furniture would have been in line with his personal means and may have been rather fancy. If correct, then this rifle would have been his first actual "sporting" firearm. Perhaps a bit of small game from time to time and quite probably chunk shooting as recreation.

As to the type of rifle we might be looking at, it all depends on geography as styles varied from place to place.  Further, by 1830 many of the eastern masters were moving west and bringing their regional styles along for the ride. In other words a York Co. PA rifle could very well turn up having actually been made in Indiana.

Study the area near where this man lived. Get an idea as to the identities of the local gunmakers. Quite often certain gunmaking families migrated westward and settled fairly close to each other. Logic would dictate that a man in need of a firearm would purchase locally. This at least would give a hint as to style and probably be as accurate a guess as could be made when you attempt to reproduce a modern copy of an antique rifle.

[Shreckmeister]

I like Bruce's line of thought. With 8 kids he likely passed down a few guns and probably had a few over the period. I would seek the name of the local smith in the middle of that period and go with the assumption that he or one of the family surely had one of that smiths guns. Worst come to worst you end up with a rifle from your an ancestors neck of the woods.

[PPatch]

Some good thoughts in answer to your question here edwardc, and by the way welcome to ALR.

To answer your question: A schimmel gun or Barn Gun is/was a "stripped down" model offered by period gunmakers as their bottom of the line firearm product, a gun a less well off individual could afford. Generally they were made without the relief carving, inlays, butt plate, nose cap, in other words anything that could be was left off the gun. This didn't mean it did not function fine as a gun, it did. It would be made in the style of the region or individual gun maker who could turn them out fairly quickly due to them being pretty straight forward and without all the bells and whistles of their upscale offerings. Here is a recent posting on ALR by member t.caster of his rendition of a Herman Rupp schimmel, a Lehigh Valley gunmaker:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=38272.0

As you can see it is a beautiful gun, slim, nice architecture, nice finish, but without a butt plate or nose cap, carvings or inlay. A perfectly serviceable gun befitting its time and place.

dave

[Dennis Glazener]

my 4 times great grand father  was born in 1780 in south west virginia
some time around 1806  he married  and had with his wife 2  of 7 children while still in VA
 about 1810  they all moved to kentucky   and  then after a while about 8 to 10 years  they all moved to
indiana 

Welcome to ALR edwardc, hope you enjoy your stay.

Being a Virginian with gunmaker ancestors in VA during that time period I am curious to where your GGGG GF lived. South West VA at the time could well have been today's West VA. South west VA and today's West VA would have guns ranging from what we call Southern Mountain Rifles (which could be pretty sparse) there were also other makers that made some nicely made, very ornate rifles.

Knowing a little about his financial status would shed light on what he may have owned. This can be guesstimated by the amount of land he owned, property left to him in wills etc. The VA archives at the Library of VA in Richmond is a good place to search for this type of information.
Dennis
 

[woodsrunner]

One other "increment of measure" to determine wealth during that period, at least from Virginia South, though it isn't "politically correct" to broach the subject is: Slave owner? Three or so slaves as domestic workers might indicate a "comfortable living" status, but 20+ would indicate high up in the upper income class. None, as the most common category, usually indicates just regular settlers of English-Scottish-Scot Irish or German origins in the lower income classes.

[edwardc]

Dennis

he was born in what we think was Russell or Scott county  south west Va
i am searching for the photo copy of his original land survey 
but he owned property on the Caney and little Caney creek


the family moved to Kentucky some time around 1812 and lived in Morgan county  so named after another family member whose people ( or one at least ) married into our family . they lived in Ky from 1814 till 1827

then  they moved to Parke county Indiana  some time between 1828 and 1830  when the last known child was born

Jonathan ( my 4 times great grandfather )  died in 1852 

i assume  he was a farmer  and most likely never owned any slaves 


i think if i try and get a gun built  i may get a barn / plain jane gun like listed above 

Any notable gun makers  from those areas and times ??

[MGillman]

Samuel Lafayette Click was a Scott County, Va- East Tn. gunsmith. There were a few in Washington County, Va. I am not sure on who else was out in that area and even in Ky.

[rich pierce]

In our library I'd check out the Bogle rifle.  What a fine rifle!
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=11592.0

[woodsrunner]

Jerry Nobles "Notes on Southern Longrifles", Vols. 1 thru 4. Is there a better source of intelligence on this matter?

[edwardc]

 well i know we are scotts irish so  in my mind lower class working
mostly farmers 

i have zero knowledge of his parents etc
there are a couple of rumors  but nothing concrete

but we have had  what i call brushes with famous people

Ethan Allen Via marriage of his brother  to one of my family

George rogers Clark  brother to the Clark of Lewis and Clark   stuff like that

no idea of Jonathan served in the military  during the war of 1812 
but i do know one son was in Indiana militia during the civil war


you all have given  me a lot  to think about  and research  to do

ed
 

[Dennis Glazener]

Having to type left handed/surgery so will make it short.
Go to this link and see what you can find. VA census will show if family owned slaves. Be sure to search using last name only surprising what you might find. Some info you can see online others you will need to visit or request copies.

http://www.lva.virginia.gov/public/using_collections.asp

Russel  and Lee Counties were where my 3rd GGM Nellie Lee Glazener came from circa 1796. Honaker gunmakers were not too far away.

VA library has abstracts of records from these two counties that are a great source of early settlers of tis area.
Dennis

[MGillman]

James Honaker and Gerald Honaker would have been in that area. There is a Samuel Click rifle in Betsy White's Backcountry Makers book and Great Road Style book. I have Honaker pictures if you are interested? I am descended from the Honaker family.

[edwardc]

would  be interested  in any pics  you might have

and  i am not trying to turn this into a genealogy  topic  but i know very little of these counties my gggg grandfather might have come from
so  i would be interested in any info  you can contact me by my e mail

thank  you all

edward  c

[woodsrunner]

Part of my family came out of Bedford, County around the foot of the mountains just east of Roanoke. Their name was "Creasy", and they were there before the RevWar.

[Pete G.]

Generally, if a family moved often they were most often pursuing economic opportunity and did not hold large parcels of land.

[edwardc]

Pete


that's kind of what i am learning
i have found some records and he seems  to have only had maybe 120 acres at any time or place

[Dphariss]

If it was a gun to actually USE in Kentucky it was likely a rifle. Its FAR more economical than a SB for almost any purpose. This was well known by the 1750s and was pointed out by the traders who wanted selling of rifles to the natives banned so they could sell more powder and lead. The military did not like rifles in native hands (and they had considerable numbers of them in the PA area by the 1740s) since they were very dangerous how the natives made war. So unless the owner could not see well enough to shoot a rifle its likely a rifle. In 1800 it would likely be 40-44 caliber. By the 1850s the bore size might be as small as 30 caliber. But I thing 32-36 would be better.

The only time a shotgun makes sense is if next to a large water course or lake and waterfowl are plentiful and can be market hunted, then it needs to be a 10 bore or larger. If it were someone with no reason for a firearm other than for militia use then its going to be some cheap  smoothbore fowler. Maybe a Musket.

Dan