Interesting Butler's Rangers Powder Horn on Ebay

[G. Elsenbeck]

There's an interesting 'old' powder horn on Ebay right now that definitely looks old.  However, I find the engraving and the 'font type' to be interesting.  It doesn't look like anything I've seen depicting the era the horn is supposed to portray.  Any of you serious collectors/experts out there ever come across anything similar?  Is it possible the horn is authentic, but the inscription added at a later date, perhaps in time for the centennial (circa 1876)? 
Gary

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-18thC-Rev-War-Butlers-Rangers-Powder-Horn_W0QQitemZ140308055479QQihZ004QQcategoryZ10951QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Thanks for the headsup on this.  That is a pretty cool horn.

Coryjoe

[keweenaw]

Gary,

That strikes me as a pretty strange horn.  I'm clearly no expert but the horn would have been impractical to carry.  It's obviously very thick judging from the lip but has only that tiny groove around the spout that would be hard to keep a strap or cord on.  There doesn't seem to be nearly enough gunk in the lettering, the plug looks like it was a planed board before it ended up in the horn and the brads are terribly clean without much if any bleed into the horn. 

Tom

[G. Elsenbeck]

Tom my guess the horn was more of a storage horn vs. being carried solo all the time considering the size.  The thickness at the base end is not surprising either as the 'lip' would have to be rather substantial enough to withstand carrying such a load and not break.  The base plug almost looks as though it were cleaned up some.  As far as being planed?  Our forefathers were certainly expert at use of a hand plan and scrapers.  Hard to tell from only a picture though.
Gary

[Cory Joe Stewart]

MMMMM, you bring up an interesting point. 
I am not sure if it would be difficult to carry.  For the mid-eighteenth century larger horns were the norm, with 14 inches being the average size.  I have made a few horns that were difficutl to carry the way the lip was on them, because I wanted to state true to the original.  I gave one that I will post some pics of, when I get a chance.
As far as the thickness goes that could be something that might vary from maker to maker.  Maybe it was left thick to protect the lip. 

Would thing that would help is if someone who knew about the metal insignia could chime in and tell us some about that. 

Coryjoe

[G. Elsenbeck]

Corey you bring up a good point about the metal insignia. I do know that they were used some during the F&I period as I believe Rogers Rangers had pins.  At least I think so.  Anyone out there with additional info/input?
Gary

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I have seen some Rangers pins, but nothing like that.  But I am not the expert on that topic, or any other.

Coryjoe

[Randy Hedden]

It looks  like the spout has been damaged/broken off and then reworked to provide a place for strap attachment.  There is not much contact area for the obviously replaced spout plug to make a seal.

Randy Hedden

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I wonder if there was an applied tip at some point in time.

Coryjoe

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Here is that horn I mentioned, It is patterned after an origianl and comes pretty darn close. This horn would be a pain to carry.  The lip is on the bottom and it has very little twist.  But it is true to the original. 




Coryjoe

[G. Elsenbeck]

Not sure if the Ebay horn would have had an applied tip or not.  Most likely scraped too thin initially and broke off.  Corey, nice looking rendition on your horn!
Gary

[Tony Clark]

For anyone interested in bidding on this piece I would be certain to email the seller and ask for an adequate amount of time to examine the piece and make certain what his "100% unconditional guarantee" exactly means. I purchased a few good items from him over the years, such as two volumes (1854 & 55') of Schoolcrafts Information Regarding the History, Condition, & Prospects of the North American Indians one autographed by Seth Eastman (the illustrator) and the other by William Moneypenny Commissioner of Indian Affairs, both inscribed to Samuel Cooper who was later to be given the honor of being the highest ranking officer in the Confederate Army. When I got the books I found that they had been re-backed and he had stated that the bindings were all original. I kept the books anyway as they were still a good buy and the re-backing was at least a professional job.
The other item in question was a charcoal drawing  of Marguerite de Orleans, dated 1526 and attributed to Jean Clouet court painter to Francis I. The seller stated that he "absolutely guaranteed it was on original".  I was extremely wary about the originality of this piece from the beginning and told him so, but yet I purchased it anyway, thinking that there just may be a chance that it was a good piece. When I got it I examined it and my opinion was that if it was a fake, it was a really good one, done on hand laid paper, writing on back in iron gaul ink, evidence that it had been removed from an old backing and now re-affixed to another very old backing. It just looked good. Now in retrospect I believe the piece is not as old as he represented it to be, but a very very clever fake. I do not think however that the seller really was aware of what it was he was selling was a fake.
I only mention this to point out that in my experience I have found this particular seller to not be that knowledgeable about the items he is selling, like this powder horn for example. I would not give any credit whatsoever to his opinions, and would be certain to make sure a buyer could have ample time to examine it and have a 100% unconditional money back guarantee for any reason. Regards, TC

[G. Elsenbeck]

Tony mentions a good point.  From my experience with this seller in the past whenever there was an article put up for bid the correct terminology in the item description was usually a 'red flag' that the seller was not all that familar with the item.  In this particular example, why not use the term 'lobe' to describe "with a higher back edge drilled with a hole for tying a cord."?  So, no, I don't mean to imply that the seller knowingly has something suspect on his hand, only that there is an apparent lack of knowlege of original powder horns at work here.  I see this alot on Ebay. 
Caveat Emptor applies.
Gary

[Tony Clark]

This seller often states things like he "absolutely guarantees" a particular item to be original, even though he doesn't know that much about some items, and they may in fact not be. That is actually against ebay policy... it is not enough to describe something to the best of ones ability, ebay requires claims like that to be supported and proof provided. If proof cannot be provided than the seller must state that his comments are only his opinions. CAVEAT EMPTOR, yes, but this seller actually shouldn't be making a claim that can't be supported at least by standard accepted practices or professional opinion. Regards, TC

[G. Elsenbeck]

FYI, I've sent the seller an email inquiring about the history of the horn and what documentation, if any, that can help a collector.  We'll see.
Gary

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Yeah, I am not in the market for something like that, but thanks for the info.  And do let us know what you find out from the buyer.  As was pointed out above, it may not be that the seller is trying to cheat anyone, but simply does not know what they have.  Problem is with a price tag like that you shoudl be able to provide some info.  Can't wait to see what you folks come up with.

Coryjoe

[Lee]

First off, if that horn is legit it would be worth three or four times times the $500 bid that's on it right now.  Ask the dealer where he got it, if he can't tell you or is in any way vague, walk away.  The letter on the base plug is definately a "B"(an R would have the right leg curling out instead of in.  But the B and the base plug don't show the over two hundred years of patina that should be on them.  They are probably not as old as the horn.  The engraving around the horn base looks period - good double line copperplate style lettering. Nice border too.  When I look at the pouring spout, I am floored.  It's a carved mouthpiece for a blowing horn not a spout for pouring powder from a powder horn!  When you blow up the picture of the spout, you can see how the rounded edge curves into the inside of the horn. This isn't a pouring spout, its a mouthpiece.  It sure isn't going to hold a very secure stopper.  It's size would also suggest that it was a blowing horn originally.  Here's what I think, it is an old blowing horn that has been converted into a powder horn some time ago. The blowing horn might even have belonged to a Butler's Range, but there is no way to tell. As for myself, I would shy away from the horn - too many red flags.

[G. Elsenbeck]

Thanks Lee for helping out.  So far, no word from the seller and I suppose if it were legit it wouldn't be on ebay to begin with but rather a well known antiquities dealer. 
Gary

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Wow Lee that is awesome input.  I did not pay that much attention to the spout.  I have seen several horns on ebay before advertised as old powder horns, but were clearly blowing horns.  But it was mainly because the seller had no idea. 

I bought an "antique powder horn" on ebay once for a very reasonable price, got it in the mail and there was only a small pin hole in the spout that did not even go through.  No worries, I turned it into a pretty cool horn. 

Coryjoe

[keweenaw]

The authentic Butler's rangers metal insignia I've seen are usually a medallion for a cartridge box and have GR in the center with a crown over and Butler's rangers engraved on the surrounding ring.  In Bill Guthman's auction a genuine medallion and an engraved uniform button sold for $25,000. 

Tom

[T.C.Albert]

Sans the plug and engraving, it reminds me of the decoration found on late victorian wall pockets made of whole horns...and the single lobe hole seems to be centered so it would hang the horn very well on a wall tip down. Not saying it is or isnt , just what puts me in the mind of.
TCA

[Cory Joe Stewart]

The authentic Butler's rangers metal insignia I've seen are usually a medallion for a cartridge box and have GR in the center with a crown over and Butler's rangers engraved on the surrounding ring.  In Bill Guthman's auction a genuine medallion and an engraved uniform button sold for $25,000. 

Tom

That is the style I am familiar with as well.  It is definately the medallion that throws me off.

Coryjoe

[PINYONE]

After really looking at the horn, i have some doubts about it- a good friend of mine about 8 years ago wanted to be a horn collector- he went hog wild buying one after another- every other one was junk. he finally stepped up the program and bought 2 horns for over $5,000. apiece, they looked good but there was a horn maker in the 80,s in Maryland that was doing a good job of making fakes. The 2 he bought were made by the horn maker, he used some old parts and aged them and then they were from 1776- this horn on Ebay looks just like one of the Maryland horns. If Bill Guthman's button sold for $25,000. something is wrong here. But Ebay is Gambling at any rate- throw the Dice. TGP

[Randy Hedden]

I don't know why some of you feel suspect because the bids for this horn haven't broken $600 yet.   This is just the way of Ebay. This horn has over 6 days to go before the auction ends. Normally on Ebay an item may or may not get a couple of bids early on in the auction, but the greatest lot of bids for any item always come in the last minute or less  of the auction.  Every bidder will be trying to snipe the other bidders by placing their bid in the last few seconds.  Not that I think that this is a righteous horn, but if you follow the auction to the end you will see some higher bids right at the end of the auction.

Randy Hedden

[PINYONE]

These words that randy has spoken hold truth in them, no need to bid until the last 10 seconds- that is when it will sell. Maugua the Huron