Gunsmiths of greenville?

[Eric Kettenburg]

I think you'll find that most of us who have 'been around the block' in this trade will have strong opinions.  The only thing of relevance that I have to add is that the opinions of many have been colored, shall we say, by interactions with the author.

He's certainly capable of excellent writing.  Whether or not the book clearly explains assorted processes inherent to the construction of a rifle I can't say as I've not used a copy as a guide.

I think Hershel's old video is probably the best guide to building I've seen.

[Mark Elliott]

Now I see the problem.    You see, I skim reference books.   I don't read every word.    I am just trying to extract the information.    My brain discards the rest.     Apparently,  I just discarded the confusing part of Gunsmith of Grenville County without paying much attention to that fact.    

By the way,  I do think Art of Making the Pennsyvania Longrifle is great introduction to building, but it is just that; an introduction.   However,  I do think that anything more involved is going to be a slog to read.    It would take a very creative person to write an more complete book that is interesting and easy to read.   

[JCurtiss]

Of the books mentioned, it's a simple fact that none of them are the complete answer.  Each contains information that is omitted or unclear in the others.  Each will get you started, but you really need them all in your library.

T*O*F is spot on with his recommendation to have all three. 

Indeed I have all three reference books and use them all.

Jason

[Mike Brooks]

Well, I'll just end my comments by saying go ahead and buy the greenville book and you can judge for yourself, it's only money. I've wasted alot more money and got less.

[Tony Clark]

Since this forum frowns upon publicly making negative comments about different suppliers, I have no comment.
David

Nicely worded David. William Buchele put the best book out by far in my opinion. Books are nice to have but if you really want to learn you need to study with someone hands on who is competent. Speeds up the process quite a bit.

[Ed Wenger]

Lost Arrow...  Another option in addition to the books mentioned, is the tutorial by Mike Brooks which can be found here in the "Tutorial" section.  I think you'll find it to be very straight forward, easy to follow, and very informative, especially for the newer builder. 



           Ed

[smart dog]

Thank you so much for all your replies , and advice. I think ill go ahead and order it.

Hi Lost Arrow,
I don't think you will be disappointed.  I have all the books mentioned and referred to them frequently in the past.  Peter's book is very comprehensive but it is not the best resource for a step by step guide.  It is a collection of essays he wrote over the years and it can be confusing if you try to build a gun chapter by chapter.  In my experience, it does not segue nicely or logically from one building step to the next.  The other books are organized much better in that way but are less comprehensive.  For a simple straight forward "how to step by step" book, nothing beats Dixon's "The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Rifle" but that book is specific to long rifles and does not provide the more detailed reference material included in Peter's book.

dave   

[Bill Ladd]

So now you guys tell me.

I'd read it recommended so much here that I bought it early on in my journey.  A lot of the book is clear as mud to me. Glad to learn I'm not the only one with this experience.

I ordered his first dvd and find it provides a clearer stepwise building procedure.  I find it also has added clarity when I consult the book.

[Willbarq]

Great book. It's the one I've learned the most from. There are other good books, but they are not as detailed.
I'm working on my first rifle (Beck inspired). I'm working from a blank.  Having never buildt a rifle, I would have made some serious mistakes on basic arcitecture without the detailed instructions. At the moment the rifle project is in mothballs, done some practice carvings. but not happy with the results.
And I got kind side tracked with a brace of pistols. Pistol stocks are easier to do because the left and rigth side are symetrical.  A rifle butstock is asymetrical, but it still has to look balanced. That hard to do without detailed instructions or good rifles to study.

Best regards
Rolf

The results here speak for themselves. But as I read the discussion I have a tendency to agree with the "wordy" , confusing. I would add overly complicated. I love his advice about tools, er finding them. But now "antique" collectors have run up prices on tools. However "made in china" has run up the prices , driven manufacturers out of business of anything too specialized. "Made in China" makes me quite angry.

[sqrldog]

First I don't want to be critical of anyone with guts enough to write a how to on building a muzzleloader. They immediately open themselves up to both accolades or criticism based on differing view points. I have all the how to books mentioned above plus articles saved from magazines on how to do the various tasks of building a muuzleloader. I also have tapes and dvds from Dangler, Alexander, and about all the videos from American Pioneer Video. None of them will tell you every thing you need to know to build a muzzleloader. It all is just a reference for information on the process of the build. I made three lists of chisels and gouges used by Mark Silver, Jim Kibler, and Jack Brooks to stamp in carving. They use mostly different chisels! But it works for them. Nothing will take the place of doing it and learning from your experienc as you build a rifle. Som learn faster than others. I think every dollar I have spent on these books tapes dvds and other reference material has been well spent. But nothing takes the place of doing it. Having a mentor can really expedite learning and speed up the learning curve. But after learning where a lock should be placed on a stock and watching someone else inlet it, you still have to go home and do it yourself. My advice buy every book dvd video and search for tutorials on this site read and study them. Then go to work on a rifle. Problem comes up ask for help here. Tim

[Mike Brooks]

It's all pretty amusing when viewed with somebody's eyes that has been doing this quite a while. I started in 1980. algore hadn't even invented the internet yet. I found Recreating the American Longrifle and plunged off the cliff. There were no "mentors" in my area. In the mid 80's I went to a UWK seminar. It wasn't even hands on back in those days. Bivens, Gusler, Silver, etc. just yaked for a few days. For me it was basically buy parts and build, build, build, then rush to Friendship once or twice a year and see what the big guys were making  and walk around and listen and try and soak everything up like a sponge. When I went full time in '96 I set up my marque on commercial row and charged ridiculously low prices. People I had known down there for years were shocked that I even built guns.
Now there are classes all over the place and the internet is an invaluable tool. I still learn things on this forum all the time. Everything sure is easy compared to 35 years ago. Of course the competition is ferocious these days. There are an incredible amount of relatively new guys that are doing work that was undreamed of even 20 years ago. Pretty amazing. I'm glad retirement is getting closer for me, these younger guys are smokin' me!

[sqrldog]

Mike
I started my first build in 1981. I bought a set of Hawken parts from William Young in Wahkon Mn. He at that time was the closest gun builder I knew. He soon became a friend after the hours of questions I bothered him with as I struggled to get the rifle together and shaped. It didn't turn out well. Pieces of it still exist but not the whole rifle. Eventually I met Tony Maples a local builder and learned from Tony and Frank Bartlett after we became friends. By the way William recommended a plain rifle for the first build, but I didn't listen. At the time I think I had an 8" mill bastard file and a quarter inc chisel. The barrel was 1 1/16 at the breech with an 1 1/8 breech filed on it for two weeks to get the breech and barrel somewhat in the samw plane. Later William laughed and said I would have gladly milled that off for you if I had of know your limited resources. But I learned from it. Still most of us will never attain the skill level of all of you really good gunsmiths. I still say learn all you can from all sources available to you and then go to it. The only way to really learn and develop you ability. 

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I have the book and refer to it very little once I started actually working hands on.  I know refer to the Hershel House DVD and the Mike Brooks online tutorial more than any other source. 

Coryjoe

[oldtravler61]

Lost Arrow what you should do is find a copy an check it out. My opinion remains the same. On the book but with everything there's always options. But it all matters to what works for you. I have bought several books an tapes, VHS an dvd s over the years that we're recommended. Some were easy to understand others not so. The easiest was Herchel Houses like Erick stated. Good luck in your build.

[Eric Kettenburg]

The greater thing about Hershel's method of explaining things is that it takes ALL pretense out of the picture.  Your immediate thoughts are, "heck, I can do that!"  Regardless of whether or not you appreciate his building style, the guy is one $#*! of a hands-on type teacher.

[Tony Clark]

The greater thing about Hershel's method of explaining things is that it takes ALL pretense out of the picture.  Your immediate thoughts are, "heck, I can do that!"  Regardless of whether or not you appreciate his building style, the guy is one $#*! of a hands-on type teacher.

Amen to that....

[Willbarq]

Lost Arrow what you should do is find a copy an check it out. My opinion remains the same. On the book but with everything there's always options. But it all matters to what works for you. I have bought several books an tapes, VHS an dvd s over the years that we're recommended. Some were easy to understand others not so. The easiest was Herchel Houses like Erick stated. Good luck in your build.

I wanted to borrow from the library system which gives me access to the whole state. Notta one copy. However the blacksmithing ones are. I guess I'll have to buy it.

[ddoyle]

That being said I find Gunsmith of Grenville somewhat wordy  Grin and sometimes confusing particularly for new builders. I've had two new builders that I've been helping get overly frustrated trying to follow Peters book.Sometimes too much information clouds what are really simple concepts.

That is a reflection on the readers not the book. New builders being frustrated is not a phenomenon unique to those owning a copy of Greenville.

Truth of the matter is that nowadays people simply do not read for comprehension all that well.  This is the twitterverse and anything beyond a couple syllables and most people's brains shut down. It took some courage for Peter to write to a grade 9 level instead of the grade 3 level that would have made the publisher happier.

I think I own every book about gun building published and there are no lemons in the bunch they all have something to teach. It just happens that Peter managed to get a HUGE amount of information, data, attitude into his book.

In perspective I burnt 200 dollars of fuel yesterday, spent 80 bucks at the grocery store today for some diapers and milk and shipped off 60 bucks to the i net company. Spent 50 dollars for some kids to spend 2 hours watching a crappy movie ..................40 bucks for a book that can serve generations and provide a few hundred hours of joy seems pretty cheap.

[crankshaft]

 The missus is on the local library board, and in the past they let me select books for the next buy that men would be interested in.   Some of these aforementioned books were chosen along with what were the classics recommended in the old Dixie catalogs, (Winchester, Parker,etc.).
Well, these often failed to be returned and the library puts little effort in getting them back.  Some of the ones they do get back are mutilated.   Some were inter-library loaned out to other states. 

[Old Ford2]

It's all pretty amusing when viewed with somebody's eyes that has been doing this quite a while. I started in 1980. algore hadn't even invented the internet yet. I found Recreating the American Longrifle and plunged off the cliff. There were no "mentors" in my area. In the mid 80's I went to a UWK seminar. It wasn't even hands on back in those days. Bivens, Gusler, Silver, etc. just yaked for a few days. For me it was basically buy parts and build, build, build, then rush to Friendship once or twice a year and see what the big guys were making  and walk around and listen and try and soak everything up like a sponge. When I went full time in '96 I set up my marque on commercial row and charged ridiculously low prices. People I had known down there for years were shocked that I even built guns.
Now there are classes all over the place and the internet is an invaluable tool. I still learn things on this forum all the time. Everything sure is easy compared to 35 years ago. Of course the competition is ferocious these days. There are an incredible amount of relatively new guys that are doing work that was undreamed of even 20 years ago. Pretty amazing. I'm glad retirement is getting closer for me, these younger guys are smokin' me!

Mike, you could not say it any better, " These younger guys are smokin' me"
The quality, accuracy to detail and knowledge that many of the gun makers today have created a new meaning to the expression " Golden Age of Muzzleloading"
The books mentioned are invaluable!
I have been making these front stuffers for a long time, but am seriously humbled by the fine art of today, mostly achieved from the study of the books mentioned.
The ALR site has provided much more insight to the craft that will be gathered from reading the books alone.
Thanks to you, Taylor, Daryl, Rolf, Runar only to mention a few, have made us all more learned students.
The ALR site is my" go to place" each day, for amusement, humour, but most of all knowledge on this subject.
Enough said!
Fred

[Long John]

Lost,

See what you started!

When I got my copy of the book I didn't skim it - I studied it!  I had already been screwing up for almost a decade so I figured that I would benefit greatly.

In a lot of places there were some good ideas.  But in other places where the text categorically states that THIS IS THE WAY TO DO THIS it wasn't so, and there were far better ways of doing the same task.  I think that many of the negative comments stem from the editorial style with which the book is written.  For most gun-making tasks there are several ways of doing it, some easier for me but less so for someone else.  The text of the book in question does not seem to recognize that reality.  So the editorial style makes it come of as being obnoxious and self-absorbed. 

It is a good reference as long as you read it with the recognition that it is one person's opinion on what seems to have worked best for him and opinions are like exhaust-pipes.

Best Regards,

JMC

[Acer Saccharum]

Books are good, drawings are good, real study guns are good, lessons are good. Mix all these together, and you'll have a pretty good idea what to do. You also will make a bunch of mistakes before you recognize you're about to make one in advance.

I figure it takes about four or five guns to get the principals down pretty solid, another five or ten to get them looking pretty good, ten more and you sure know a lot, but the eyesight and energy aint what they used to be, so the guns start looking worse.

Pinch of humor, and two cups of truth.  Start making with the best info you've got; eat read sleep longrifles until you think you can make one. It aint gonna be perfect, but it will be good.

[Pete G.]

The problem with books is that they are written by guys that already know how to build and they often have been building for so long that they can't even remember what it is like to not know a lot of things that they take for granted.

My first book was the Buchele book, purchased back in 1976. Although it was inspiring, it wasn't really much help for someone who knew next to nothing about how to start building. The next book was the Dixon book, which was better, but it is still pretty thin on a lot of things. I even have a copy of the McCrory books written back in the early 60's (not much good any more). The Alexander book turned out to be what I was looking for. It also delves into some of the history and design aspects that other books do not. It is always better to have too much info rather than not enough, and although there are areas that might be difficult for some readers to follow, it is a worthwhile effort.

I think that the bottom line is to eventually "Buy them all". Each will touch on some things that the others will not. Now if someone will just put out a book of how to recover from mistakes, he should be financially set for a lifetime.

[oldtravler61]

Aser truer words couldn't have been spoken any better.

[okawbow]

I bought the G of G book after I had made a dozen or so rifles over a 30 year period. The rifle I built using the book as a guide was head and shoulders better than the others I made before.

I did have to read carefully, and re read every part of the book several times to be sure I understood everything. I also read recreating the American Longrifle. Both books are worth the money.

I believe the best thing I did, however, was getting my hands on an original longrifle, and studying it. Really opened my eyes to how slim and trim a longrifle could be.