frizzen hardness

[doug]

What colour do you (on the forum) draw  your frizzens to.  I suspect that a frizzen can be too hard and not spark well and obviously it can be too soft as well.  At the moment I draw my frizzens to dark brown but I am not getting the big yellow sparks which drop into the pan.  My impression is that the harder the frizzen, the smaller and brighter (an shorter duration) the sparks will be

I look forward to your answers.

cheers Doug

[flehto]

I draw down to a straw color. Are you sure the frizzen is hard?...I always file test and the file should just slip off, not bite in at all.....Fred

[Mark Elliott]

I don't think there is a color for the temp I temper frizzens.   I temper frizzens to 375F in a heat treat oven.  That is not quite a pale yellow.    You might draw them by heating the foot to blue and stopping the progress once the front (not the face) of the frizzen gets to pale yellow.

This all assumes the face of the frizzen is as hard as it can be.   I use Kasenite on the face of my frizzens when hardening them.   This is to replace any carbon that might be lost in heating.   

[doug]

I am sure that they are hard because I test with a file after hardening.  I have recased a number of mild steel frizzens from foreign  gun locks  but I have also had to use the Kasenite on high carbon frizzens.  I am a bit suspicious that some of the surface carbon can be burnt off from the surface of a high carbon frizzen.  What continues to puzzle me is that some modern and some antique locks will throw large orange long lasting sparks while others just quick fizzy bright sparks.  I have yet to figure out what makes the difference.  I have considered speed of the flint and angle of attack as well as approximate hardness of the frizzen but I can't say that I am seeing any definitive relationship.

cheers Doug

[Long Ears]

I don't think there is a color for the temp I temper frizzens.   I temper frizzens to 375F in a heat treat oven.  That is not quite a pale yellow.    You might draw them by heating the foot to blue and stopping the progress once the front (not the face) of the frizzen gets to pale yellow.

This all assumes the face of the frizzen is as hard as it can be.   I use Kasenite on the face of my frizzens when hardening them.   This is to replace any carbon that might be lost in heating.   

Mark, when using Kasenite when heating do you pack it or just put it on the face and heat it to cherry before you quench? I assume you quench in oil and then into your oven to temper. Am I correct? Thanks, Bob

[Mark Elliott]

I don't think there is a color for the temp I temper frizzens.   I temper frizzens to 375F in a heat treat oven.  That is not quite a pale yellow.    You might draw them by heating the foot to blue and stopping the progress once the front (not the face) of the frizzen gets to pale yellow.

This all assumes the face of the frizzen is as hard as it can be.   I use Kasenite on the face of my frizzens when hardening them.   This is to replace any carbon that might be lost in heating.   

Mark, when using Kasenite when heating do you pack it or just put it on the face and heat it to cherry before you quench? I assume you quench in oil and then into your oven to temper. Am I correct? Thanks, Bob

I just heat the frizzen to a dull red, dip the face in the Kasenite, heat to hardening temp and then quench in quenching oil.   From there it goes in the heat treat oven.  I do the heating for hardening in my gas forge.  It is usually a fairly quick process as I generally preheat my forge to 2350F

[David R. Pennington]

Can't get kasenite any more. I found an old formula for case hardening compound. Haven't tried it yet, but might need to when I run out of Kasenite. "Take equal parts of prussiate of potash, sal-amoniac, and common salt, pulverize and thoroughly mix."

[jerrywh]

I have never had any great success with Kasenite. I always pack harden my frizzens even if they are made of high carbon steel.  I experimented a lot with this and noticed the same thing about the long lasting sparks and the short frizzy ones. I came to the conclusion that the long lasting red sparks come from a high carbon frizzen that is on the soft side. I have had frizzens that would frizzel sparks all the way to the ground but the frizzens like that are pretty soft and don't last long before they get gouged up. Also the angle has to be correct between the hammer and the frizzen. It must have a scraping motion. In general I got the best sparks from a strong main spring and a somewhat weak frizzen spring.  I mentioned this before but if you take the frizzen spring off and try the lock you will get very good sparks with no frizzen spring.
 In my opinion the more carbon the frizzen has the better the sparks. It is the carbon that burns. I can't say tha tone kind of sparks ignite any better tha nthe other.

[Acer Saccharum]

I also prefer to pack harden frizzens in charcoal. More carbon, the better.

I temper mine by eye, cough, cough, but so far it's worked. Scraping face light brown, no more, and tail dark blue. The pan cover between frizzen and tail is a blue/purple. I do this with a torch, playing the heat slowly over the frizzen until I get it pale yellow/brown all over. Then I grip it by the strike section with pliers, and play the torch on the tail only to bring that to blue.

You MUST polish the whole thing bright if you want to see the color change.

[bgf]

My Durs Egg frizzen was way too hard, so I put it in a soup can full of dry sand and baked it in an oven for an hour, then let it cool.  It's been a while, but I think I started with 390dF, then did it again at 400 as it seemed too hard after the first try.  Probably that varies with the frizzen, so probably safer to start at 375 and go up until you are happy.  You need a relatively good oven and an accurate thermometer.  The sand helps average out any temperature variations.  I found the technique on here or the old board archives and it worked well.  The color was some form of straw/light yellow, I think.  I doubt it gets hot enough to steal carbon, plus you'll stay below the temper range for the foot, so if it is good, no need to redo it.

[Acer Saccharum]

If you can file the frizz, it's too soft. If flints stick into it, or bust apart upon impact, the frizzen is too soft.

Too hard, and the flint will skate over the frizzen, and not scrape much spark at all. Any sparks will be few and white.

Sparks should be yellow-ish to orange.

A powerful mainspring will get the best out of your frizzen, plus a SCRAPING motion, which tends to shear metal off.

This is a Davis Colonial American lock, but I curved the frizzen back quite a bit toward the cock to get more 'scrape'. I had to re-harden and temper.

[doug]

I just heat the frizzen to a dull red, dip the face in the Kasenite, heat to hardening temp and then quench in quenching oil. 

    Kasenite requires time to absorb into the steel and I am told it penetrates about .001" per minute.  I heat the frizzen red hot and put Kasenite on the face and keep the frizzen red hot for 3 minutes using a clock.  I usually have to add more Kasenite a couple of times through the process and I heat the frizzen from the back side to slow the loss of Kasenite.  For something like a tumbler I lay the part on a piece of 1" x 1/4" flat bar with a hole in it for the shaft and pile Kasenite on the part and heat red hot, again keeping it red and surrounded by Kasenite for 3 minutes and finally quench in water

cheers Doug

[Mark Elliott]

I just heat the frizzen to a dull red, dip the face in the Kasenite, heat to hardening temp and then quench in quenching oil. 

    Kasenite requires time to absorb into the steel and I am told it penetrates about .001" per minute.  I heat the frizzen red hot and put Kasenite on the face and keep the frizzen red hot for 3 minutes using a clock.  I usually have to add more Kasenite a couple of times through the process and I heat the frizzen from the back side to slow the loss of Kasenite.  For something like a tumbler I lay the part on a piece of 1" x 1/4" flat bar with a hole in it for the shaft and pile Kasenite on the part and heat red hot, again keeping it red and surrounded by Kasenite for 3 minutes and finally quench in water

cheers Doug

The thing is,  I am not trying to add carbon.  I am trying to keep from loosing carbon during the heating process.   As long as the Kasenite keeps me neutral as to gain or loss,  I am happy.   Some people use a carborizing flame, but he burners on my current forge are not adjustable for air flow.    Therefore, I use the Kasenite just as you would use a carborizing flame. 

[bob in the woods]

I use a charcoal fire for heating frizzens etc. I've never had a problem with sparking, since the piece is buried in carbon   

[Long Ears]

Acer, do you pack the frizzen in a crucible and finely ground charcoal? What do you use for a crucible? Good stuff here, thanks guys. Bob

[Dphariss]

What colour do you (on the forum) draw  your frizzens to.  I suspect that a frizzen can be too hard and not spark well and obviously it can be too soft as well.  At the moment I draw my frizzens to dark brown but I am not getting the big yellow sparks which drop into the pan.  My impression is that the harder the frizzen, the smaller and brighter (an shorter duration) the sparks will be

I look forward to your answers.

cheers Doug

Get TWO oven thermometers. Competely degrease the part. Preheat oven to 375 by the thermometers. Put part in oven. you can hang it from a degreased wire if you like. Leave for 30 minutes or an hour. Shut off oven and let it cool. Should come out a barely noticeable to light straw color.
This should be right for spark and the frizzen will not be likely to break if it was not damaged in the initial quench.
Dan

[Acer Saccharum]

Long ears, I have used several containers.

One: a piece of pipe, one end welded shut, the other end with a loose fitting plate over it. The end of the pipe is machined flat, so the plate fits without much gap. Parts are packed in crushed up charcoal. (not self-lighting briquettes-they have wax and glue in them)

Two: a steel can with the cut off lid on top of the charcoal. Pack the parts in charcoal, put the lid on. Fire for an hour at red heat in a forge or other suitable fire. Avoid an oxygen rich fire by making it really deep, and supply just enough air to make the fire hot enough to turn the can orange..

Charcoal can be gotten in 5 lb pails from Brownell's. Or use 'Cowboy Charcoal' from the store. Or make your own.

[Ky-Flinter]

Can't get kasenite any more.......

Brownell's now sells their own Surface Hardening Compound.  MidwayUSA sells Cherry Red Surface Hardening Compound.

-Ron

[David R. Pennington]

Can't get kasenite any more. I found an old formula for case hardening compound. Haven't tried it yet, but might need to when I run out of Kasenite. "Take equal parts of prussiate of potash, sal-amoniac, and common salt, pulverize and thoroughly mix."

(prussiate of potash I believe is potassium ferrocyanide)

[jerrywh]

 You don't need anything but the Potassium Ferrocyanide. Forget the other junk. I have been using this on small screws and stuff for 50 years.  The trick is finding it.  The salt and the amonium chloride are fluxes.

[moleeyes36]

Has anybody tried this product from Brownells?  If so, what are your thoughts on it?  http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/color-case-hardening/surface-hardening-compound-prod27119.aspx

Mole Eyes

[JCKelly]

Before Our Gov't decided to Help Us, Nicholson file used to coat their freshly cut file blanks with "cyanide loaf" to prevent any loss of carbon during their very short heat treat at 1440F, water quench.

This depended upon potassium ferrocyanide to start things out, just like (I think) in Kasenit. The mixture was:

Potassium ferrocyanide, K4Fe(CN)6, mixed with flour and bone black, all boiled together in salt water.

As this is a fairly conservative group I will include the 16th century version:

Take Ox hoofs, and put them into an Oven to dry, that they may be powdered fine; mingle well one part of this with as much common Salt, beaten Glass, and Chimney-soot, and beat them together, and lay them up for your use in a wooden Vessel hanging in the smoak; for the salt will melt with any moisture of the place or Air. The powder being prepared, make your iron like to a file; then cut it chequerwise, and crossways, with a sharp edged tool: having made the iron tender and soft, as I said, then make an iron chest fit to lay up your files in, and put them into it, strewing on the powder by course, that they may be covered all over: then put on the cover, and lute well the chinks with clay and straw, that the smoak of the powder may not breath out; and then lay a heap of burning coals all over it, that it may be red-hot about an hour: when you think the powder to be burnt and consumed, take the chest out from the coals with iron pinchers, and plunge the files into very cold water, and so they will become extream hard. This is the usual temper for files; for we fear not if the files should be wrested by cold waters.

So if you have an ox around this might be a good way to go.

An excellent reason to pack harden new frizzens in something with charcoal, is that surface carbon burns out of that frizzen as it cools in the mould. The thing now needs to have that carbon restored, for us that means pack hardening.

It is the steel, and not the carbon, that burns as sparks from a frizzen. The word "frizzen" is related to "frizzle", meaning little curly chips. Like frizzy hair.

[BOB HILL]

Or frizzle chicken feathers....... Bob

[Jim Chambers]

Mr. Kelly is correct in stating that the frizzen castings loose carbon while cooling in the mold during casting.  They also harden somewhat during that time making them very hard to drill for the screw.  To solve both problems we pack all of our frizzens in a carbon material as soon as we receive the castings from the foundry.  They go into an oven and are heated to around 1600 degrees for five hours.  Then, the oven turns off and cools slowly for about 24 hours making the frizzens soft enough to drill without any problem.  The five hour heating in the carbon more than restores any carbon lost in the casting process.  We don't see any need to add any more carbon to our frizzens during the hardening process, but we do use a carbonizing flame to heat our frizzens to prevent any carbon loss.
We also do the same treatment to our springs, tumblers, flys, and sears to restore any lost carbon and to anneal them for machining.

[dogcatcher]

Can't get kasenite any more.......

Brownell's now sells their own Surface Hardening Compound.  MidwayUSA sells Cherry Red Surface Hardening Compound.

-Ron

Enco also sells the Cherry Red Surface Hardener, right now it is on sale at $22.95 for a pound of it.
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=25219237&PMAKA=328-1122