Author Topic: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend  (Read 9838 times)

Offline David R. Pennington

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Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« on: January 03, 2016, 04:20:10 AM »
 This Friday and Saturday, January 8-9, 2016 the resident blacksmith and I are going to be working on trying to forge weld a gun barrel in the blacksmith shop at Heritage Farm Village Museum in Huntington, WV. (heritagefarmmuseum.com)
Any one in the area come on by and visit with us. We might even put you to work on the bellows. Located right off I64 near Huntington, WV.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

ddoyle

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2016, 06:58:27 AM »
Really hope some pics - notes get taken. Have fun with it.

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2016, 04:58:08 PM »
I am hoping we have someone there who can document and photograph. The museum says they have a photographer coming, but typically they will only want a few shots for publicity and move on. They aren't interested in the real process like we are. So far only two of us are committed to be there. Hoping one more guy shows up to be interpreter and run interference for public. The third guy just had rotator cup surgery so he can't hammer. We won't have time to take notes or photograph if we are barrel welding.
 I am excited. Will be fun!
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2016, 09:20:48 PM »
I suppose you will have practiced forge welding in general. Make some good welds, and examine your mistakes.

You might also deliberately overheat a piece of steel so you know for sure what "burning" the part means. Lots of white sparks, unforgettable. Means the grains are surrounded with scale (iron oxide) and the whole piece will have no more strength than that scale. Overheating the billet, hence burning the steel, caused some of the problems with low-numbered 1903 Springfield receivers.

Forge welding modern steel is not so easy as forging wrought iron, which comes full of its own flux. I admit I am pretty low on expertise - made one forge weld in wrought iron, just before I burnt my first iron. Flux not needed. 

Today some use 20-Mule Team Borax for steel, others one or the other proprietary flux. I've no idea which is best. But you must use some manner of high-temperature flux.

When you are finished with that barrel, each and every inch must be welded soundly.

That is mostly why they proof tested barrels in previous centuries, to test the quality of the weld.
Defects in the iron were much more common than today, but they did account for some failures.

I saw one illustration of someone "testing" his forge welded barrel by driving a tapered pin into a short cut-off length. That, I presume, determined if that short length was strong, but said absolutely nothing about the rest of the barrel.

You might want to read Harpers Ferry Armory and the New Technology; The Challenge of Change by Merritt Roe Smith, Cornell University Press copy- write 1977. This tells how musket barrels were actually made -no romantic stuff - and proof tested. Before they got a power hammer (helve hammer) loss in proof at Harpers Ferry sometimes hit 40%. By the use of a power hammer (and probably better iron) Springfield kept the loss down to about 12%. Maybe I'm in error about that 12%,  I strongly suggest you read the book yourself.  It is the only book I know that dispassionately covers forge welded barrels.

Apologies that I have mislaid a section of wrought iron barrel that burst at a defect while firing blanks at Friendship. Maxine Moss lent it to me, since she is long gone and they had Denise "retire" I don't know anyone there personally. Back to the barrel. It had quite a forging lap in it, which some fine fellow had brazed up. Well, brass corrodes pretty much in the sulfur compounds that come with burning black powder, and after about a century of so it just all turned green. Pretty much know where it is in the basement, if I find it while this thread is still alive I will post it.

Yes, yes, YES, I know I am a wet blanket.

If you forge up a tube which someone might be expected to shoot you have a moral responsibility to proof test it, twice, just like the Armory did. The "bang" is followed by a close inspection for any defects that may have opened up in the bore.

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2016, 06:15:43 AM »
JC, Thanks for the input. We are using an iron skelp welded up from old wagon tire. I don't think I would even attempt to try this with steel. If we get a useable tube out of the project rest assured it will be well proofed. Tomorrow we will see.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2016, 07:07:42 PM »
 Be aware that wagon tires were'nt the best wrought iron. They usually have a lot of inclusions, because at the bloomery this grade of iron got the least amount of hot hammering. The later period wrought iron is more likely to be better grade, because mechanized hammering tended to work the iron longer than old hand hammered, or single water powered hammer operations.

    Hungry Horse

ddoyle

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2016, 11:25:29 PM »
Quote
Before they got a power hammer

Not sure how hard they are to come by or if they are desirable but as of last week there was an old manual "power hammer" with a bunch of the 5 foot long hammers and bits located 5 klicks north of Spences bridge B.C on the west side of the highway.  Outside/unloved and available for the scrap price or less if your not a jerk. LOL.

Offline jrb

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2016, 02:13:47 AM »
American Pioneer Video sells a great dvd of Jon Laubach with two helpers forging one using all hand tools to hammer with. I have to re-watch it, but I think they started out with about a 15 pound skelp of wrought and reduced it to six pounds by the time it was formed and welded into a tube.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 02:17:42 AM by jrb »

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2016, 03:28:26 AM »
The tire we used seems to be pretty fair grade stuff. Probably from some type of carriage from size of it. Wasn't heavy enough so we took two three foot long pieces and forge welded them together rounded roadside to roadside. We ended up with a sixty two inch long skelp. We had a right good day in the shop today and welded from middle out to one end. Grew about two inces in length. Hapiness is a pile of slag around the swedge block.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2016, 05:10:59 AM »
Finished up the second day in shop welding rifle barrel. We worked area welded yesterday down with top swedge on swedge block. Fixed some suspect spots and straightened up. Looks pretty good. Total length now about 72". We started with 36" pieces welded together and it grew to 62". At some point we will need to cut it down, but for now we have a good handle to work with. Even if we don't get a useable barrel we will certainly have had a tremendous learning experience.













VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline mark brier

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2016, 07:23:20 AM »
Are you using 2 different sized mandrels? From the tube I see welded up it appears as tho the skelp was not tapered for forging a swamped barrel. Also the end you did get welded out shows that you needed a higher heat and to jump the last half inch alot more before welding out all the way. This will allow you to hammer down tightly around the mandrel resulting in a rounder hole and centered. A smaller tapered mandrel will also allow you to hammer down tighter and not leave a tear drop in the bore opening which makes it easier to bore out. But congratulations on your first attempt. I can show some of my forged barrels forged and finished if someone was willing to post them for me.

Mark Brier

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2016, 03:52:01 PM »
Are you using 2 different sized mandrels? From the tube I see welded up it appears as tho the skelp was not tapered for forging a swamped barrel. Also the end you did get welded out shows that you needed a higher heat and to jump the last half inch alot more before welding out all the way. This will allow you to hammer down tightly around the mandrel resulting in a rounder hole and centered. A smaller tapered mandrel will also allow you to hammer down tighter and not leave a tear drop in the bore opening which makes it easier to bore out. But congratulations on your first attempt. I can show some of my forged barrels forged and finished if someone was willing to post them for me.

Mark Brier

This man,Mark Brier is the grandson of the late Tom Dawson whose skills were legendary in the worlds
of muzzle loaders and double rifles.He just sent me pictures of a swivel breech action he is making and it
is a fine piece of work. I wish Tom and Helen were still here to see what daughter Diana added to the family.

Bob Roller

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2016, 05:22:35 PM »
Finished up the second day in shop welding rifle barrel. We worked area welded yesterday down with top swedge on swedge block. Fixed some suspect spots and straightened up. Looks pretty good. Total length now about 72". We started with 36" pieces welded together and it grew to 62". At some point we will need to cut it down, but for now we have a good handle to work with. Even if we don't get a useable barrel we will certainly have had a tremendous learning experience

Great job!  Cool stuff.
Andover, Vermont

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2016, 05:37:57 AM »
Are you using 2 different sized mandrels? From the tube I see welded up it appears as tho the skelp was not tapered for forging a swamped barrel. Also the end you did get welded out shows that you needed a higher heat and to jump the last half inch alot more before welding out all the way. This will allow you to hammer down tightly around the mandrel resulting in a rounder hole and centered. A smaller tapered mandrel will also allow you to hammer down tighter and not leave a tear drop in the bore opening which makes it easier to bore out. But congratulations on your first attempt. I can show some of my forged barrels forged and finished if someone was willing to post them for me.

Mark Brier
Mark, we were using 1/2" and 3/8" tapered mandrels. We start with the 1/2 and as it closes change off to the 3/8 and back and forth as we progressed. We did not intentionally taper the skelp. I suppose we should have. It was a little thicker one end by accident. As you noticed the end shown did not weld out too well. I hadn't thought of jumping it up first. I worked the iron in and out of the fire the second day. I tried to bring the iron up to where it was sticky when I poked it with a wire while in the fire. Sparkles just coming off the surface when pulled out of the fire. Is this hot enough? It is hard to get used to bringing the iron up to the proper temperature after using steel. With the length we have we could sacrifice a couple inches off the end if need be. Any input from experienced barrel makers greatly appreciated as we are students in this process.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline mark brier

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2016, 05:57:08 AM »
Those size mandrels are appropriate if you maintained a width of 3 inches the entire length of the skelp. If I am making a 56 cal or larger barrel I prepare the skelp at a half inch thick at the breech end but of 3 1/2 inch width and use a 5/8 and 1/2 inch mandrel. In preparing the skelp if your unsure of the quality of the iron run each heat at or near welding temperature to further refine the piece. Keep a half inch thickness at the breech and taper the thickness as you go the length but maintaining a 3 inch width. The flare towards the end of the muzzle is obtained by jumping the barrel after welded. I also make a point to I-beam the edges of the skelp before fullering it up to give more iron on the buttweld therefore you will keep about the same wall thickness 360 degrees around the bore and not have an off centered bore with a thin side the length of the weld. As far as your heat and stickiness that is mostly all flux your feeling. While sparkling off steel is burning wrought iron has a much greater welding window than steel due to the ore content. Some sparkling off of wrought is fine and I typically bring the tube up to where the surface of the iron starts to have the appearance of flowing

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2016, 05:48:51 PM »
What I mean by sticky is that the wire actually tries to weld to the iron or stick to it. So you jump the edges up thicker on the skelp before rolling to weld?
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline mark brier

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2016, 06:38:20 PM »
Yes that is exactly what I mean. I guess I am unclear as to the wire your referring to but melted borax is very sticky at any temperature. Are you anhydrousing the borax or using it strait from the box. I always keep mine un a glass dish near the forged to keep the moisture driven out of it. Since forging a barrel is such a time and labor intensive job I usually wet test the tube before the second day of dressing the tube and hammering octagon. Simply cork one end of the tube after cooled of course and fill with water to leave over night. Water will seep out even the tiniest crack allowing you to locate a flaw to address before proceeding any farther in the work.

Mark Brier

Offline chris laubach

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2016, 07:33:30 PM »
What I mean by sticky is that the wire actually tries to weld to the iron or stick to it. So you jump the edges up thicker on the skelp before rolling to weld?


David,
Looks like your project is coming along nicely. I know that when we forge a barrel we "bump" up the edges to give you more materiel at the weld to work with. In cross section the skelp is like a "I" beam. I believe this is what Mark is saying?

As for the end... you can jump material up at the end and weld the end. We have had good luck using a top swage to complete the end. As for temperature of iron....when we do our demo at Dixions every year we have people come in and look at the piece in the forge and show them what we are looking for but the best way to describe it is the out side looks greasy or like butter flowing over a piece of hot corn on the cob.

Also I don't if you have had a chance to check the video from american pioneer video "FORGING A FLINTLOCK RIFLE BARREL"?
http://www.americanpioneervideo.com/bsmith.html

Keep up the good work!

Chris
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 07:44:33 PM by Chris Laubach »

Offline mark brier

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2016, 02:05:25 AM »
Yes that is what I am meaning, thank you Chris for making it clearer. Afraid I am probably not the best teacher or explain things clearly

Mark Brier

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2016, 03:29:39 AM »
looks greasy or like butter flowing over a piece of hot corn on the cob.

Chris,

Are you welding mild steel or wrought iron?    The butter color is what I use for welding mild steel.   I find that wrought iron needs to be white hot with what some people call sparks coming off of it.   It looks like the bubbles coming off of a soda to me.    Am I getting the metal too hot?  If I am, then I am doing something else wrong as it doesn't seem to want to weld colder than white hot, at least for the wrought I have been using.     

I didn't know about jumping the edges of the skelp.  That is good to know.   About how much do you thicken it up on the edge?

  
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 03:37:40 AM by Mark Elliott »

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2016, 04:12:23 AM »
Yes that is exactly what I mean. I guess I am unclear as to the wire your referring to but melted borax is very sticky at any temperature. Are you anhydrousing the borax or using it strait from the box. I always keep mine un a glass dish near the forged to keep the moisture driven out of it. Since forging a barrel is such a time and labor intensive job I usually wet test the tube before the second day of dressing the tube and hammering octagon. Simply cork one end of the tube after cooled of course and fill with water to leave over night. Water will seep out even the tiniest crack allowing you to locate a flaw to address before proceeding any farther in the work.

Mark Brier
I keep a length of heavy tie wire, about 1/8"diameter, handy by the forge and when the iron begins to get "buttery" the wire will stick or try to weld to the iron in the fire. In this shop we keep a small iron kettle near the forge with the borax, but we don't take any extra precautions to dry it other than that.
Bumping up the thickness on the edges makes good sense. I also like the idea for the water test. Do you just hammer the octagon into the blank or use swages?
Thanks again for the help.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2016, 04:17:27 AM »
What I mean by sticky is that the wire actually tries to weld to the iron or stick to it. So you jump the edges up thicker on the skelp before rolling to weld?


David,
Looks like your project is coming along nicely. I know that when we forge a barrel we "bump" up the edges to give you more materiel at the weld to work with. In cross section the skelp is like a "I" beam. I believe this is what Mark is saying?

As for the end... you can jump material up at the end and weld the end. We have had good luck using a top swage to complete the end. As for temperature of iron....when we do our demo at Dixions every year we have people come in and look at the piece in the forge and show them what we are looking for but the best way to describe it is the out side looks greasy or like butter flowing over a piece of hot corn on the cob.

Also I don't if you have had a chance to check the video from american pioneer video "FORGING A FLINTLOCK RIFLE BARREL"?
http://www.americanpioneervideo.com/bsmith.html

Keep up the good work!

Chris

Yes Chris I have the video, I probably need to watch it again. Thanks again for your help.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline mark brier

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Re: Forge Welding Barrel project this weekend
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2016, 04:30:51 AM »
David,
In forming the flats of the octagon I just hand hammer as close and square as possible and then finish with the flatter to make it as smooth, crisp and even as possible and use a gauge to check the width across all the  flats so that they are even. When forming your flats do take your time to keep them just as straight as you possibly can to keep them from rolling to one side or the other giving your barrel a definite unwanted twist. In regards to the video that Jon and Chris Laubach done with American Pioneer video I have not had the opportunity to see that but I have heard nothing but positive reports on it.

Mark Brier