Whitworth .451 load data ?

[gunmaker]

 Anyone have some load data for those long range whitworth type English rifles, throwing a long bullet MUZZLE LOADER data only......Tom

[Bob Roller]

Anyone have some load data for those long range whitworth type English rifles, throwing a long bullet MUZZLE LOADER data only......Tom

Modern shooters of these types of rifles use anywhere from 85 to about 105 grains of powder. I think Swiss is the favored one but I don't remember the granulations. Bullets weigh from about 450 to a bit over 550 grains and can be grease grooved or paper patched. I think the GG is the favored type.The bullet usually is about .0005 smaller than a clean bore and supposedly the weight of the loading rod (steel) will push the bullet down to the powder. Disc wads are frequently used but not always needed.Cylindrcal bullets CAN be used with good results in hex rifled barrels. The opposite probably not.My original Whitworth was a military match rifle and had Alex Henry rifling and used a Lyman mould #451112 in 485 grains and 75 grains of DuPont 3fg and no wad.
It won matches so I was happy with it. Sold long ago after 11 years of use.
There is a website dedicated to these superb rifles and I THINK it may be LRML or Research press.
It's in England.

Bob Roller

[gunmaker]

Thanks Bob, I heard Swiss 1-1/2 90 gr. more less.....

[bob in the woods]

I have a nose pour mold  made by Tom Ballard for Paper Patch bullets. I settled on 535 gr bullet [ it's an adjustable mold ]  and 80 gr powder . 

[snapper]

I don't have a whitworth, but I do have 5 long range ML's and compete with them.  Including one on my bench that I am finishing.  It was the last parts from Don Brown after he past away a few years ago. TOF put it together for me and as always did an outstanding job.

I use 2F swiss.  One rifle likes 70 grains on ranges out to 600 yards.  From 900 to 1,000 I use 75 grains.  Veg fiber wad, paper patch bullet 1 in 16 tin to lead ratio, 528 grain pointed bullet.  Another rifle likes 86 grains of 2F on all yardages, grease grove bullet in the 540 grain range, 1 in 20 tin to lead. veg fiber wad

need more info, let me know.

fleener

[crankshaft]

  Art,  where do you go to shoot at that distance?

[snapper]

Rick Weber host a match every year at Oak Ridge TN  for 200, 300, 600 and 1,000 yards.

Friendship has a range out to 500 yards.

Lodi WI has a match that you can use your ML to shoot in the bp cart match out to 1,000 yards.  I did this once and worked my butt off trying to stay in the time frame, and I am a fast shooter and reloader.

Camp Butner NC for the USA international team tryouts and most recent World match 300, 500, 600, 900 and 1,000 yards

World matches are every 2 years,  in 2017 they are in Australia and as it stands today my wife and I are planning on going.

The only practice I get is at matches. 

There are other places that host matches out to 1,000 yards, but none in Iowa. 

I drove over 6,500 miles last year going to 4 matches. 

fleener

[wet willy]

I have a Parker-Hale repro, made in the 1970's in England. .451 w/75 grs 2F works OK for me, especially if using a greased pasteboard wad over-powder, I've several molds throwing 475 to 525 grs bullets cast with 99% lead (not wheel weights or some unkown alloy), all work about same for me. I size them to 0.450 while lubing the grooves. They load easily, but I've never had a chance to recover one to check for obturation into the grooves but they seem to shoot OK.

Found that more than 75gr 2F is hard for me to tolerate and shoot well over a 20 shot event ... too much recoil whilst shooting prone, and could never correlate more powder/velocity (less wind drift) with better scores.

Lots of fun shooting against like rifles with ladder-type rear sights and globe/post front. Much different shooting prone at 600/1000 yards than 100 yards from a bench. I suspect load variations get vastly overpowered by eye sight & resolution with original sights.

Have fun and enjoy shooting your Whitworth.

[heelerau]

Gentlemen, Happy New Year , trust you all had a Merry Christmas as well.
Yesterday, I took the Volunteer back to the range after a hiatus of several months. 85 grains Goex FFg, this time a waxed felt wad over powder, beer coaster wad on top, wipe with a dampened flannel patch via a proper fitted ribbed brass jag, which allowed the bore to be cleaned to the top of the wad. I lowered the rear sight a couple of turns and brought the group pretty well central. It took me two adjustments hence the 3 shots in the white at about 1'oclock. It was a hot bright still morning. 13 shots, 10 to score at 70. Range 200m. I could lower the rear sight another 1/4 turn and that should bring it completely central.  My Volunteer has the earlier Rigby style of rifling, I am still sorting this rifle out, and expect is should group tighter again. My projectile is about 550 grain, 4 cannelures, came with the rifle.It does have a long unsupported ogive which I feel will not be up to the longer ranges. Currently the maximum range I compete at is 200m off the bench.

Cheers

Gordon...

[Bob Roller]

Gentlemen, Happy New Year , trust you all had a Merry Christmas as well.
Yesterday, I took the Volunteer back to the range after a hiatus of several months. 85 grains Goex FFg, this time a waxed felt wad over powder, beer coaster wad on top, wipe with a dampened flannel patch via a proper fitted ribbed brass jag, which allowed the bore to be cleaned to the top of the wad. I lowered the rear sight a couple of turns and brought the group pretty well central. It took me two adjustments hence the 3 shots in the white at about 1'oclock. It was a hot bright still morning. 13 shots, 10 to score at 70. Range 200m. I could lower the rear sight another 1/4 turn and that should bring it completely central.  My Volunteer has the earlier Rigby style of rifling, I am still sorting this rifle out, and expect is should group tighter again. My projectile is about 550 grain, 4 cannelures, came with the rifle.It does have a long unsupported ogive which I feel will not be up to the longer ranges. Currently the maximum range I compete at is 200m off the bench.

Cheers

Gordon...

Gordon,
This sort of group at 200 meters looks to me like the nipple is burned out. What kind of sights??
Bob Roller

[bob in the woods]

I had to reduce my powder charge and use a lighter [shorter ] bullet for the 200 yds targets since my bullet wasn't settled down yet at that range and shot a 4 to 5 inch group. From a nice rest , with low wind I can count on a 3 inch or so group at that range with a load the rifle likes. My .38 cal will shoot under 2 inches at 200 yds., but isn't as good in the long range matches. as the .45   

[heelerau]

Bob, thanks for the interest. I Have new platinum lined nipple fitted.  The rifle is fitted with a Lyman mod 17a front sight, using the ring, the rear sight is just a simple Pedersoli tang sight with some limited windage adjustment.  The first 3 shots are in the white at about 1o'clock, I then adjusted the elevation down. My scope is a bit limited for 200yds and I don't always see the points of impact either clearly or at all.   I am still learning to use this rifle, found Dutch Shoultzs system of help in this, particularly with regard to cleaning. A mate from Canada is sending me some lyman postal bullets to try, including a few cast from 1/20 tin/lead. The bullet currently in use came with the rifle, and is meant for it. The bullet has a long unsupported ogive which I think may be a problem.
      Your question pleases me because it implies this sort of rifle should shoot much much tighter.  There are quite a few of these volunteer rifles in our club, but most have been retired because people could not  get them to shoot.  They have been somewhat unpleasantly surprised at what  I have done with this rifle at 100m so far.  I weigh my charges, bullets, index the bullets on loading and am constant with regard to loading pressure.  Cleaning properly between shots seems to be giving me the greatest improvement at the moment.  Any suggestions will be well received.
    I suspect most of my problem lies with the bullet design.

Kind regards

Gordon

[Bob Roller]

Bob, thanks for the interest. I Have new platinum lined nipple fitted.  The rifle is fitted with a Lyman mod 17a front sight, using the ring, the rear sight is just a simple Pedersoli tang sight with some limited windage adjustment.  The first 3 shots are in the white at about 1o'clock, I then adjusted the elevation down. My scope is a bit limited for 200yds and I don't always see the points of impact either clearly or at all.   I am still learning to use this rifle, found Dutch Shoultzs system of help in this, particularly with regard to cleaning. A mate from Canada is sending me some lyman postal bullets to try, including a few cast from 1/20 tin/lead. The bullet currently in use came with the rifle, and is meant for it. The bullet has a long unsupported ogive which I think may be a problem.
      Your question pleases me because it implies this sort of rifle should shoot much much tighter.  There are quite a few of these volunteer rifles in our club, but most have been retired because people could not  get them to shoot.  They have been somewhat unpleasantly surprised at what  I have done with this rifle at 100m so far.  I weigh my charges, bullets, index the bullets on loading and am constant with regard to loading pressure.  Cleaning properly between shots seems to be giving me the greatest improvement at the moment.  Any suggestions will be well received.
    I suspect most of my problem lies with the bullet design.

Kind regards

Gordon
[/quote

Gordon,
I think you are right. I have a number of bullets made from a Lyman mould #457 or 456121 that are ideal. There is a similar design #451114. These are parallel cylindrical with a short ogive. I KNOW from experience
these work in the bullet guns. NIOA in Australia phone #61.7 3621 9999  and Herron security and sports Pty Ltd
# 612 9417 3388. mould # 2641121and  2641114. The reason I know this IS I just called Lyman and these moulds are available in Australia.
Both of these bullets are grease groove types.

Bob Roller

[heelerau]

Bob,
       thank you for the additional information, I will get onto these local suppliers and order one. 
   The current mould apparently was an alternative bullet for the whitworth form of rifling. 
 I made an error with the postal bullets, not lyman but Lee Shaver.  I will post another target in a few weeks when I get the new bullets.


Cheers

Gordon

[T*O*F]

I made an error with the postal bullets,

Gordon,
Just a minor point..........it's spelled POSTELL, not postal.

[heelerau]

Good oh, thanks !!

[Blacktail]

You might try calling the folks at Rifle Magazine and inquiring about buying a back issue. I recall that Ross Seyfried did an article on these rifles which included data for an original and a repro he was shooting.

[Gene Carrell]

I shoot a P-H Whitworth repo. My original load that shot very well out to 1000yds was 85gr Swiss 3Fg (weighed) in a cleaned barrel followed by a dry 9mm felt wad (hex) seated with 40lbs pressure and a paper-patched 545gr pure lead swaged bullet, Obduration was perfect to the ogive and the recoil shooting prone was impressive. This load produced 1325fps at the muzzle. I have played with another load that looks promising using a mixture of 85gr Swiss 2Fg and 15gr Swiss 3Fg. Obduration is only 3/4 of the bullet, but it prints a good target. I have stopped shooting long range due to difficulties with my eyes. One issue seems to prevail with a hex Whitworth shooting a round bullet of appropriate diameter is the barrel must be clean. Obdurate the bullet onto a clean barrel. Have fun!!! 

[Bob Roller]

I shoot a P-H Whitworth repo. My original load that shot very well out to 1000yds was 85gr Swiss 3Fg (weighed) in a cleaned barrel followed by a dry 9mm felt wad (hex) seated with 40lbs pressure and a paper-patched 545gr pure lead swaged bullet, Obduration was perfect to the ogive and the recoil shooting prone was impressive. This load produced 1325fps at the muzzle. I have played with another load that looks promising using a mixture of 85gr Swiss 2Fg and 15gr Swiss 3Fg. Obduration is only 3/4 of the bullet, but it prints a good target. I have stopped shooting long range due to difficulties with my eyes. One issue seems to prevail with a hex Whitworth shooting a round bullet of appropriate diameter is the barrel must be clean. Obdurate the bullet onto a clean barrel. Have fun!!! 

A NINE millimeter hex wad in a 451? Just how does that work?


Bob Roller

[T*O*F]

Obdurate the bullet onto a clean barrel.

You are confused with your terminology.
Obdurate is an adjective meaning stubborn, obstinate, or inflexible; not unlike many of the old geezers involved in muzzleloading.

Obturate is the correct term you are looking for.  It's a verb which denotes fitment of a bullet by deformation into the barrel.

[Daryl]

Obdurate was the word Sam Fadala used in his writing, instead of obturate.

[Gene Carrell]

Cut your hexagonal wad (a snug fit to bore) from 9mm thick engineering felt.

[heelerau]

Bob, shot this today, 200m, 85grs FFg goex, a 500 gr Lee Shaver bullet a  mate from the Canadas sent me. Stiff cross wind, constant, and my scope does not cope at that range so have to walk down and look !! Teach me to use a sub caliber.  Will have to locate the bullet moulds you mentioned in the US, that won't be a problem

cheers
Gordon

[Bob Roller]

Bob, shot this today, 200m, 85grs FFg goex, a 500 gr Lee Shaver bullet a  mate from the Canadas sent me. Stiff cross wind, constant, and my scope does not cope at that range so have to walk down and look !! Teach me to use a sub caliber.  Will have to locate the bullet moulds you mentioned in the US, that won't be a problem

cheers
Gordon

That group fired in a wind is good,really good.
As far as a sub caliber,I like the 38 or .375.
Tim Devantier in New Zealand said they got good
results with them at over 500 meters. I wish I
had kept mine but have little time to shoot now with ANYTHING.

Bob Roler

[Hungry Horse]

 Are any of these guns considered a longrifle?

    Hungry Horse