I found an old Percussion rifle, could use some help.

[silly goose]

Hi, folks.  I came across what appears to be an old percussion rifle in my travels.  The lady who owns it, says it was her father's rifle and it was made by Henry Behr of West VA.  I have pics on my cell phone if anyone could help me post them.  If not I will have to wait until my wife has the time to do it.  Sorry, I'm no techie.  It appears to be a heavy barreled octagon .45.  I believe the lock says "Golcher" on it.  Brass hardware.  Nose cap appears to be riveted on with 4 copper rivets.  Breech plug tang has fractured at some point and stands proud of the screw.  The hammer is loose on the lock, but other than that it appears to be in really good shape with strong rifling.  The inletting appears to be well done, and there is a silver deer inlet into the cheek. 

I actually met this lady about a year and a half ago, when she showed me the rifle.  I finally got the nerve up to go speak to her about it again, and told her I would like to find out more about it.  She said she would like to find a home for it, so I said to let me find out what it may be worth and if it was within my range, I would buy it from her.  She said she wasn't interested in money, she wanted to make sure it had a home that appreciated it.  I told her that for now we will just try and see what we can find out about this rifle and that I wouldn't take advantage of her, for sure. 

Like I said, if someone can help me with pics from my phone, I'd appreciate it, if not, I'll have to wait until momma comes home.  Thanks for any help you can lend.  I am very excited about this rifle.

[silly goose]

[Nate McKenzie]

Is it signed?  The sway belly stock looks kind of New Yorkish to me.  Probably 1850's or 60's.

[silly goose]

There appears to be the remains of a signature on the top barrel flat, you can barely tell it may have been a signature.  Nothing definable. If it was a signature, it wasn't very deep, and is about wore off. 

[nord]

My impression... A fairly late NY rifle. Furniture is generic. (By that I mean purchased at a hardware or dry goods store.) The stock is either of rather straight-grained maple or walnut. The dark staining makes it difficult to be sure of which. Rather small caliber would further suggest a late gun and not one meant for large dangerous game.

Given the somewhat less pronounced perch belly compared to many guns made along the Mohawk river and westward along the lakes, and given the full stock versus a half stock, I'd be inclined to guess a piece made in central or southern NY. If pressed as to the date of manufacture I'd opine within a very few years of 1860+/-.

Unless a hint of a signature can be brought up I'd not be hopeful of determining the maker as I can think of at least four or more local men that made pieces similar to this. As a further thought you might look under the barrel for a stamping which would identify the barrel maker. If Remington, then somewhat expected and not much help. On the other hand there were local barrel makers and a stamp could narrow the gun maker considerably.

[silly goose]

I believe the stock to be maple.  The pics don't show it, but in hand you can see some curl, nothing striking, but it is present.  I would very much like to pull the barrel, if anything to get it set back down where it should be and relieve the stress on the wood.  My only experience is with recent built long rifles, but I'm betting at least the rear barrel pin is bent, and hope doesn't chip out the stock upon removal. 

Any idea of worth? That I have no experience with. 

I had nothing to measure with, but am guessing the barrel width is at least 1", and again guessing cal to be .45.

Thank you gentlemen very much for your thoughts. 

[nord]

Please don't misinterpret what I'm about to share...

This particular type of gun doesn't usually rise very far on a collector's list. It's late, it's generic, and the style is generally considered less desirable than PA or southern rifles. Further, there are some  things that preclude it being a shooter. Only if such a piece should be connected to a famous person or event would I expect it to be somewhat more highly valued.

That said, the gun appears to have been well constructed and is by no means a tomato stake. It has value and the more that can be learned about its history the better the value in my humble opinion.

Bottom line value is something sometimes better left alone as there is no such thing as a set value on antiques of this genera. I've seen horribly abused rifles made in the Golden and Silver eras going for amazingly high dollars and I've seen late generic rifles in amazingly good condition go for very little. Value is something set only at the time of sale.

If you're considering purchase of the rifle, then bear in mind that it's neither a shooter as it presently stands nor is anything terribly special. Then again, this is my opinion based on my likes and not yours. Only you can decide what the piece is worth to you but the rifle is most definitely not a work of art. 

[Dennis Glazener]

Check with Avlrc he will probably know if its a WVA rifle. His email is in his profile.
Dennis

[silly goose]

Nord, no offense taken.  I didn't by any means think I found the holy grail.  I just really have no idea of worth, and would like to be fair with the owner.  Thank you very much.  I really am quite happy just to be able to handle and examine an old rifle. 

[MGillman]

I have seen an identical deer on a half-stock John Whitesides in Washington County, Va. not sure if that deer is a mass produced inlay or not. I have also seen that deer on two Milton Warren rifles who was an indentured servant to Whitesides. Could the rifle be Ohio Valley?

[oakridge]

The reclining deer inlay is probably a mass produced item, as I've seen it on several rifles, including two Southern half-stocks of the 1840-1860 era.

[MGillman]

The reclining deer inlay is probably a mass produced item, as I've seen it on several rifles, including two Southern half-stocks of the 1840-1860 era.

I figured as much.

[Nate McKenzie]

Is that deer an inlay [flush with the wood], or an overlay [on top of the wood].  I have seen overlays like this and have a buddy that acquired several at auction.  They are cast and have cast prongs on the back to pound into the wood to secure them.

[silly goose]

The deer is inlet flush.

[oakridge]

Those I've seen were inlet flush, but I'm sure they are cast, and have the little prongs on the back that press into the wood. The same companies made barrel key escutcheons the same way, with little prongs on either side of the slot. Some German silver and brass mounts like this were cast with the maker's name on the back.

[crankshaft]

  A tip of the hat for the inletting.  The best I can tell.

[Avlrc]

Never heard of Henry Behr, not saying he did not make guns in WV. Here is a list of most of the known gun makers in WV.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l0xy3AkWThdKU_vLYWHvxVTpN0PsduxMPtKdpHBGiHo/edit#gid=0

[JCKelly]

Get her Daddy's name, birth & death dates, where he lived & get her to sign a letter to this effect. It might not add many $$ but reasonably proven provenance makes the gun more salable, at least in my opinion

Would guess this to be a $500 - $1000 rifle at retail.

By the way, I like this rifle. Photos show no Genius has restored it.
There were a lot of half-stocks made in this style, I think not so many full stock rifles.
"perch belly" stock style is said to have originated in SW New York State. It is also found in Michigan, Ohio & points west. No reason it could not have been used in WVA as well. If you are a patient man, get access to ancestry.com and search for Henry Behr, USA, 1850 and 1860. You may find quite a few, and even if you have the right one he may or may not be listed as a gunsmith. Might be shown as farmer, blacksmith, wheelwright or who knows what. Still you might find something interesting.

Again, where did her Daddy live? Well, more likely to ask where her Great-grandfather lived, or whatever generation might cover 1840 - 1890

[silly goose]

Once again, thank you all. I hope to meet with the owner again soon and see what she may want to do.

[silly goose]

I spoke with the owner today.  Long story short, she explained that she saw a rifle similar to hers, only a Lancaster, go for between $12,000 and $16,000 on a tv show.     No, I didn't counter offer.

[Avlrc]

I spoke with the owner today.  Long story short, she explained that she saw a rifle similar to hers, only a Lancaster, go for between $12,000 and $16,000 on a tv show.     No, I didn't counter offer.

She did, I would like to find out who the buyer was? Would be beat the heck out of working.

[JTR]

Well that's too bad. There are plenty of rifles, Lancaster and others, that do sell for between $12 and $16K, but unfortunately hers isn't one of them. She's comparing Ferrari value to a Yugo,,,,, after all, they're both cars.

John

[silly goose]

It's all good. I was just happy to get a good look at such a rifle.