Author Topic: Pyrodex  (Read 34903 times)

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2016, 01:08:18 AM »
  Some police dept.would see the change in a sock as a weapon.  If you have a baseball bat in your truck/car in some states you can be charged for having a weapon????


In my state pretty much any inanimate object can get you in trouble if it is carried "FOR THE PURPOSE OF GOING ARMED".

Intent makes the prohibited "pre-crime".
Hold to the Wind

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #51 on: March 27, 2016, 12:02:19 AM »
To get back to the original topic: what is the consensus of opinion on other replacement powders besides Pyrodex? I have a can of "American Pioneer Powder" FFFG that I have been using in my 45 cal rifle. Seems to work ok, and don't have any rust issues that I know of.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2016, 12:30:27 AM »
Apparently, some replacements are sugar based.
I think those have no Chlorates and the fouling left by them will not dissolve the iron molecules in the steel as the Chlorate powder happen to do.

  Chlorate/Perchlorate - not to sure about the Chemistry, but seems to me the perchlorate produces double the oxygen - or - somehow is more stable than simple Chlorate, otherwise the same deal - it is a conflagration enhancer.
Daryl

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Swab

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2016, 05:34:52 PM »
Pyrodex vs black powder

USPS classifies Pyrodex as a solid propellant and black powder as a low explosive

Gun store considers Pyrodex to be black powder however for some reason if they stock black powder it must be locked and in a safe not on the shelf with the rest of their ammo.

The "Pyro" lays a trail of pyrodex and black powder on the ground to watch it burn like in the movies, he notices the black powder is very fast and the pyrodex burns much slower.

The modern black powder hunter figures out that there is no difference so long as his cap fires.  After all isn't all gun powder is corrosive?

The reinactor nearly threw away his flintlock with disgust because it would never ignite the powder until he went to an event and was told to leave his powder at home as powder was provided.

I think that sums up many of the different views.  In my opinion Pyrodex is more corrosive, burns slower, and is more difficult to ignite. 

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2016, 05:49:48 PM »
 In my opinion if you shoot a black powder guns, and have the option of buying black powder to feed them, and then buy something else, you probably should take up golf.

    Hungry Horse

Offline mikeyr

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2016, 01:34:23 AM »
I have shot BP for 40years.  About 2 months ago I bought some pyrodex pellets for my cap&ball, I don't want to call it a hangfire because it always goes bang, but the hammer drops, ignites the cap and and and then gun goes boom.  Its a noticeable time delay, less than a second but its very different then BP.  I will finish off that box and go back to BP.  Didn't try pyrodex in rifles and now I wont.  I didn't notice any difference in cleaning, but its a stainless handgun so that may have made a difference.
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HAWKEN

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2016, 07:14:37 PM »
  Some police dept.would see the change in a sock as a weapon.  If you have a baseball bat in your truck/car in some states you can be charged

So, if you keep a baseball bat in your vehicle you should also keep a glove and a baseball, LOL..........robin

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2016, 05:02:10 AM »
  Wonder if you guys can help? I have heard both ways_ Pyrodex can be used in Black Powder barrels and  no don't use it because of safety reasons. So fellows, which is it?  I know its hard to clean but powder is almost impossible to get where I am. Pyrodex is readily available along with Triple. ???

T7 is the best choice. HOWEVER, its designed for HV inlines and make make more pressure than you might like . Best option is to order some real powder or find a source in your area. Both are harder to light off. T7 is generally used with 209 shotgun primers in a sealed ignition. Standard percussion caps are sometimes be problematical with Pyrodex or T7. 

Dan
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Offline bgf

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2016, 07:06:57 AM »
777 in the 3f equivalent granulation goes off better than the 2f version.  Both require magnum primers.  Be careful with the charges as it is hot and as mentioned above has a sharper pressure spike than black or pyrodex.  Back when I shot a caplock, I found 777 for $9/lb. on Walmart clearance and used several pounds of it.  Very clean but slower to set off than black. 

The same Walmart had pyrodex even cheaper, and I used some of both the rifle and pistol versions.  The pyrodex actually shot well, but it is nasty to clean up and combined with a barrel "seasoned" with wonderlube, almost cost me a barrel.  I still use a bit of the leftovers  in my cap pistol, but the short barrel means I can clean it thoroughly and easily, and the tiny charges leave a lot less to clean up.  Magnum caps work best with it also.  The perchlorate (?) In pyrodex means that if you use it, you need to clean immediately and thoroughly or risk damage.  Some say it isn't 100% safe even then...

Black is much better and usually cheaper, but if you absolutely can't get it, try the 777 with hot caps first.

Offline Squirrel pizza

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #59 on: June 03, 2016, 10:55:51 PM »
Everybody has an opinion and is entitled to it. Since the first time I shot a muzzle loader through 45 years of shooting I've only used Goex BP. But because the planets are aligned wrong or for what ever other reason I can't find BP, unless I drive 60 miles and am willing to shell out $30+ a pound. True you can have it delivered, with a $35 HazMat fee, and TOTW will only do it if you buy a case at $22 a lb. But as it turns out Pyrodex is readily available and dad had some left over from 20 years ago. I figure shooting Pyrodex is better than not shooting, and I feel that most folks who espouse the glory of BP over Pyrodex are just being traditionalists or have never tried Pyrodex. I wouldn't use it in my flinters, I've been told by several folks I trust it doesn't work. But I did try it in my .54 target rifle recently and I couldn't be happier. The shots were consistent, my groups outstanding. Normally using BP in the same rifle it liked a fouling shot, then cleaning patch between shots. I don't have that issue with Pyrodex. The bore was cleaned in 5-6 patches. I don't know how corrosive Pyrodex is. I do know how corrosive BP is. That's not an issue where I'm concerned. When you're done shooting, clean your gun!

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #60 on: June 04, 2016, 04:04:27 AM »
Mr Squirrel, I'm glad that you're shooting.  If you're happy with Pyrodex, then you are good to go. That said, you indicated that you don't know how corrosive  Pyrodex is.
Trust what many have said...it is worse than B.P.   Clean and then come back in a day or so and clean again. This is experience talking. 

Offline J Henry

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #61 on: June 04, 2016, 04:45:01 AM »
  Shoot more ,,you have to clean more,,nothing wrong with that.Secret is shoot more!!!

Offline Squirrel pizza

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #62 on: June 04, 2016, 05:47:50 AM »
I will heed your advise sir. But cleaning and oiling a fine rifle is handling a fine rifle. Not much in the world better than that.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #63 on: June 04, 2016, 09:45:06 PM »
I've tried Pyrodex in a revolver and was sorely disappointed.  Velocity variation was extreme so I never tested it for accuracy.  I didn't ever try it in a rifle although I still have most of three cans of it  left in three different versions.
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Offline Squirrel pizza

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2016, 06:13:34 PM »
Bob in The Woods, you were spot on 100% right about going back in a day or two and checking the bore for rust. I did that the next day and my cleaning patch came out a lovely maroon rust color. Swabbed her down with 5 or 6 patches with good old Hoppes gun oil and put her in the rack. This morning with coffee I looked at her and was wondering. So I ran a clean oiled patch and it came out rust colored. I typically clean with Birchwood Casey #77, then bore butter. Apparently it doesn't neutralize the phosphorus in Pyrodex. I'm still not gonna quit shooting for lack of Goex, but I will be cleaning a lot more. Thanks for tip or no telling how bad it would have gotten.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2016, 06:30:50 PM »
You actually need water to clean Pyrodex fouling, Squirrel Pizza - neither Hoppe's Oil, Hoppe's #9 Solvent, NOR Lip Balm will neutralize or clean BP or Pyrodex fouling. You have to neutralize it and water - or urine works fine. So - if no water presnet, just pee in it, like your grandfather did in WW1 due to the Chlorate primers used then.
Daryl

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Offline Squirrel pizza

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Re: Pyrodexa
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2016, 08:27:03 PM »
Like I said I cleaned with BC #77, which is basically soap and water, dry patches, then Hoppes gun oil. So if I pee in the barrel, isn't the nitrogen in urine as costic as phosphorous? What about a baking soda solution? Cleaning patches are cheap. My wife's linen closet is stacked with cleaning patches. I don't mind wearing them out, but I don't want to waste my efforts either.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2016, 10:11:57 PM »
WITHOUT copious amounts of water present,  urine (ammonia) was used to neutralize the caustics in the chlorate priming fouling.
Daryl

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Offline Squirrel pizza

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2016, 10:32:54 PM »
It's worth remembering but since my urine has (copious amounts of beer) it may not work.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #69 on: June 08, 2016, 01:26:44 AM »
Beer works good too - first or second hand. ;)

Anytime ignition is delayed mikeyr - that is called a hangfire. A hangfire is when you hear a delayed lagg in the ignition - snap-boom = hangfire - it "hangs or pauses to fire".

A misfire is when the gun does not go off at all - it "missed firing" = missfire.  A misfire is not when you miss, as was recently described as such on the TV 'reality show' The Mountian Men.
Daryl

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Offline Scota4570

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #70 on: June 10, 2016, 05:55:31 PM »
https://www.hodgdon.com/msds.html

Click on Pyrodex to see what is in it.  The only thing different from BP is Potassium perchlorate.  That is very corrosive stuff.  It is used in browning solutions that you swab on hot steel to produce instant rust.  There is no phosphorous.  As for the non disclosed ingredients, I don't know. 

As stated before clean with lots of water to dissolve the salty stuff.  Pee, oil, and other stuff will not work as well.  Just plain water.  Pee....???  Why would one want his rifle to smell like a litter box, disgusting.  My experience is that Pyrodex will rust the steel in a more insidious way. It eats little worm holes in the steel.  BP makes an even surface rust.  Pyrodex works better with compression.  That is hard to achieve in a ML.  But, in cartridges you can compress the snot out of it and make good ammo.     

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #71 on: June 10, 2016, 06:16:41 PM »
Daryl is giving you a old time solution to a problem if you ever shot old time ammo with them corrosive primers you'll get where he's coming from.Quess we can go a little more into the present and step out of the way back machine.If I was shooting that $#@* I would dump window cleaner or straight ammonia down till I could do a proper cleaning.

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #72 on: June 10, 2016, 06:44:22 PM »
I have an extensive chemistry background, I am not speculating.  The ingredients of concern are salts.  They are easily dissolved in water.  Think about it, if you had a dried salty mess in the kitchen, would you use pee?, ammonia solution?, oil?, or water to clean it up?  Water right?  The fouling does not consist of acids that need to be neutralized.  Any weak acids, like sulfurous, will be flushed out by water.   Pee, ammonia solution and such only works because they're mostly water.   Urea and ammonia are not good to put on steel.  They will promote rust too.  People make this much more complicated than it needs to be. 

BTW, Yes, I have shot lots of corrosive high power ammo. I bought and shot, cases of 8mm and 303 corrosive ammo.   It is not a big deal.  No magic involved.  Thoroughly flushing the barrel with water and then cleaning as usual, it works perfectly.  I never had a speck of rust in any rifle from corrosive ammo.  Just plain old water, really. 

The problem comes when water is avoided as a cleaning agent. Some think that water is bad.   They get nervous abut putting water in their rifle.  They can 't say why but it give them the "willies".  Actually, water is free and is the most effective solvent.  There is nothing better.


Offline Squirrel pizza

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #73 on: June 10, 2016, 06:58:54 PM »
I said in a previous post that I don't mind cleaning my rifle well and several times if it means the difference between shooting something uber corrosive, paying $30+ an lb for BP, or not shooting at all. I take it back. This is my first and last forray into the use of Pyrodex. I was told clean well and recheck in a day or two. I did. Rust. Took barrel off rifle, put in vise, clean clean clean, oil oil oil. Three days. Still rust on cleaning patch. But not so much today. Hang Pyrodex! Drive 3 hours and pay $30 a pound or ruin a good barrel? Pee-no pee, ammonia, windex, Molocan pan pan fruit extract. No thanks! I'm sticking with Goex. And in my humble opinion it's just not a bargain at $22.95 for Hodgdon RS or the 777 junk at $29.95 compaired to the price of your firearm. The pound of Pyrodex I bought last week is gonna make one fine firecracker!

Offline Squirrel pizza

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Re: Pyrodex
« Reply #74 on: June 10, 2016, 07:13:47 PM »
I didn't start with a Watts rifle. The first BP rifle I ever bought was a CVA "Kentucky" rifle. You know the one with the 2 piece stock made in Spain? I was 8, and proud to have it. I cleaned it in the utility sink in the shop with soap and water. I couldn't afford store bought BP cleaning stuff. And didn't even know they sold bottled soap and water to clean your gun with till years later. I was glad to have powder and lead. If you count old tire weights. I'm not afraid of soap and water but I have rarely gone hunting in a place with a water spigot.cleaning in the field should not require the effort needed or require a degree in chemical engineering from Georgia Tech.