Author Topic: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy  (Read 23973 times)

cal44walker

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Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« on: March 18, 2009, 08:11:31 PM »
Hey guys.

After shooting blackpowder for the last 9 years I decided to go down the flintlock muzzleloader road. I've had the Pennsylvania 45 cal rifle for a few weeks and so far have not found a load combination that groups better than 16 cm at 50 meters off a rest. Alot of people seem to be using around 60grs swiss 2fg and a 445 ball with a 0.015 patch but my rifle shoots all over the place with that combination. I've started from scratch with a 445 ball and a 0.018 patch at 30gr 2Fg swiss and am going up in 5 grain incriments but so far have been very dissapointed. I am using a radiused short starter and ramrod matched to the radius of the ball so I'm not damaging the nose of the bullet which might have explained the lack of accuracy. I will be wiping between shots untill I find a good load. If anyone has some advice or experience with this rifle let me know. In the meantime I'll be continueing trying to find a good load combo.

Matt

Daryl

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2009, 09:26:58 PM »
Hi Matt- I've been shooting .45 cal. for many years, and have found all of them respond within a fairly narrow range of loads, depending on the rifling twist.  The slower the twist, generally the grater the charge needed.  You'll see guys respond with loads from about 45gr. upwards.

The rifles have shot with from 55gr. 3F to 75gr. 3F, .445" pure lead ball and .020" to .022" denim patches. With 2F, I needed to raise the loads to 65gr. to 85gr. using GOEX.  Swiss 2F should be about 10 to 15gr. faster than GOEX 2F or almost like GOEX 3F.

The .018" patch should work OK with the .445" ball. I do not wipe toe bore at any time while shooting as I've found more consistant results with shooting 'dirty'. With spit, windshield washer fluid & soap mix or a commercial black powder solvents like LeHighValley lube, or Hoppe's 9-PLUS - when you load the next shot, you are wiping the last one's fouling away.  The fouling never builds up shot to shot. There is never more than one shot's fouling in the bore and it is easily wiped down when loading the next one.

A bit of emery cloth underneath your thumb, rotating, turning the barrel often, will smooth the crown and allow even tighter loading like I use. They shoot exceptionally well for me. 1/2" to 3/4" at 50 yards off the rest. What's that, about 1.2 to 1.5 cm?  Just a guess.

Hope this helps.





Offline Scott Bumpus

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2009, 11:24:21 PM »
According to their web site, that gun has a 1-47" twist.  It will probable need loads on the lighter side to shoot well.  There are no absolutes here but I would try between 40 and 55 grains.  I had a Thompson Center with 1-48" that shot those charges very well.  I used .445 ball and .018" pillow ticking , spit lube.
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2009, 12:16:33 AM »
What you are experiencing is common for percussion shooters who convert to flintlock.  Even shooting it off a rest, you will suffer from flintlock flinch until you get used to the gun.  Once you conquer that, then you can start shooting for groups.

1.  Put a wooden flint in the gun and practice offhand holding at a spot on the wall.  Cock and fire the gun repeatedly until you or the barrel don't move when the hammer drops.

2.  Next, move to the range.  Let a friend load the prime the gun without you watching.  Have him leave the prime out of the pan every so many shots to see if your flinch is really conquered.

3.  Shoot a 25 yards first for group and load.  Then move out to farther distances.

A flint gun doesn't shoot like a percussion, but shooting a flint will make you a better percussion shooter as you will learn how to hold on target longer.

Almost forgot.  Thin the frizzen sping on the lock.  Some are so thick they won't flip open.  Those locks are notoriously badly designed in that department.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 12:19:08 AM by TOF »
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Offline B Shipman

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2009, 06:27:09 AM »
TOF is right on. When I did a lot of shooting in the 80's and early 90's this is exactly what we did even after shooting for years, just as a check. You'd be surprised.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2009, 05:36:28 PM »
Hey guys.

After shooting blackpowder for the last 9 years I decided to go down the flintlock muzzleloader road. I've had the Pennsylvania 45 cal rifle for a few weeks and so far have not found a load combination that groups better than 16 cm at 50 meters off a rest. Alot of people seem to be using around 60grs swiss 2fg and a 445 ball with a 0.015 patch but my rifle shoots all over the place with that combination. I've started from scratch with a 445 ball and a 0.018 patch at 30gr 2Fg swiss and am going up in 5 grain incriments but so far have been very dissapointed. I am using a radiused short starter and ramrod matched to the radius of the ball so I'm not damaging the nose of the bullet which might have explained the lack of accuracy. I will be wiping between shots untill I find a good load. If anyone has some advice or experience with this rifle let me know. In the meantime I'll be continueing trying to find a good load combo.

Matt

Up the powder charge and use FFFG powder.
Many rifles like powder charges in the 1/2 ball weight range. This will be in the 60-70 grain range in a 45. It might shoot better with heavier charges or lighter but likely it will be near 60 grains.
In a 45 a 47" twist is near perfect IMO, if there is such a twist for a RB.
You can go up in 10 gr increments to make faster progress then switch to 5 grain changes to find the absolute load.

Dan
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Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2009, 05:56:14 PM »
I shoot the same 45 since 89.  Getz - and started at .451 ball and .015 spit patch now shoot .454 with a patch slightly thicker tight weave and spit.   45 or 50 3 f at 25 yds (makes no difference) 62 at 50 70 at 75 and 80 (up from 75) at 100 and that is Goex or Schuetzen.  Works for me if I do my part.  I do not clean between shots....

This Getz has over 60,000 rds thru her.  Recrowned once and polished 2 or 3 times.

Last summer shot a 49x at 100 yds over the stix w/o shaders this was on a rd bull with abt a 2 in 10 ring.  So she is still tight and shoots.

Daryl

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2009, 06:11:23 PM »
Matt- many guys do all their target shooting at 25 yards, and this, I think, is the reason for seemingly light loads.  Both Dan and Roger are talking about what is needed for longer range shooting.  Most any load will print 1" or smaller groups at 25 yards.  It's the longer ranges that need more powder.  Roger's different load requirements for each range shows that a lot of experimentation was done & this sort of advice should be appreciated. He is an accuracy 'nut' and his results speak volumes.  For someone new to the game, using balls that are larger than the bore as he does, can be somewhat intimidating.  I suggest you use the .445" balls, put a good smoothly radiused crown on the muzzle and use a .018" or thicker patch. Spit, or one of the lubes discussed earlier will work fine. For hunting, a non-water based lube will be needed and that is more experimentation and load building. Just remember, little can be learned from shooting at 25 yards, apart from sight zeros.

 My own .40 has a 48" twist and prefers 65gr. 3F - if that can be taken as an indication of what load you will have to use in your .45, that load will be around 65gr. to 75gr.

cal44walker

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2009, 06:49:18 PM »
Hey guys

Thanks for all the advice. I've been shooting blackpowder breechloaders for years but this muzzle loader rifle stuff is new to me. I'm heading out to the range tommorow with 445 rb and 0.023 lubed patches and I'll be going through 35 to 75 grains in 5 grain increments to find a decent load. I'll then reapeat the proccess over the next few weeks with different rb and patch thicknesses. Should be fun, I love playing around with all the variables.

Matt

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2009, 05:18:18 PM »
All of the discussion of loads seems to be with barrels other than Pedersoli.
I suspect that some of the barrels involved, such as Getz, have some decent groove depth. Real grooves, providing some space for the patch in those barrels, might make the use of a larger ball more practical, without needing a 5 pound (2.2Kg) hammer to get that ball down.

You might want to look at the thread "Who woulda thunk it?", right here in "Black Power Shooting"  That guy used an undersize ball and thick patch in his .32 Pedersoli Frontier.

Late last year I got a .45 Frontier, tried .445, a little .440 & couple of patch combinations. Didn't get to shoot it much before Winter set in, but did manage to break & drive that nice cross-grain maple ramrod deep into my hand. The "Who woulda thunk" it guy gives me hope for this season. Think I'll try .440 ball with different patches.

Oh, yeah--I got some good wood blanks from Track of the Wolf & made a  new, straight-grained ramrod. Hand healed, too, thank you.   

J.D.

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2009, 08:16:53 PM »
You have received some good information on this thread.

TOF suggested dryfirng to acquire a good follow through, and I agree.

A mentor,who taught me to shoot a flint gun, suggested that I dryfire at least 15 minutes a day, every day, for at least a month before firing a live round.

He then insisted that I flash powder in the pan, for at least 15 minutes a day, every day, for a month, prior to firing a  live round.

He then insisted that I fire very light loads of 20 gr of powder in a 54 cal rifle, as often as possible, at a range of 20 feet, or so, prior to firing full charge rounds. Don't worry about where the shots impact on the target, as long as  they form a group.

While this training regimen sounds extreme, it is much more time and ammunition effective than putzing around with half way measures that take much longer to work through. This method works very well, though I gotta go back to the basics and dry fire, from time to time, to maintain an edge.

It was mentioned that a smaller ball and thick patch might be the answer to your lack of accuracy. And that might be the case, once you get used to shooting flint guns.

I don't know the groove depth of Pedersoli rifles, but I do know that Pedersoli rifles have a reputation for being good shooters, despite spotty quality control, in other areas. The land to land diameter,determined by inserting the shank of a drill bit that mics .321 into the bore. The .321 drill slipped into the bore, but stopped at the raised lettering that mics .323. This suggests a .322 land to land diameter, for this rifle.

The 32 Frontier rifle, mentioned on the "who woulda thunk it" thread, would not shoot well using what is considered "normal" loads for ML rifles. I did try a wide variety of patch/ball combinations, but did not try a really thick patch with smaller diameter ball.

This rifle shot so badly that It set in the  closet,without being shot, for over five years. It shot so badly that I couldn't even, with a clear conscious, sell it off to some poor, unsuspecting slob. 

Something finally clicked when I found a few .310 diameter balls and a fragment of canvas that happened to mic .020. I thought to myself, "self, why not" and the result is the report on the "Who woulda thunk it" thread.

This gun has finally come into its own with early groups rivaling some of the best shooters I have had the pleasure to own.

So, the moral of these ramblings is, try a smaller ball, with a .020  or thicker patch, and a GOOD patch lube. Spit, Windex, LVL, soap and water, or some other liquid concoction will allow shooting a number of shots without wiping.

Oh, and do funnel the muzzle as Daryl suggests. It does work very well with no loss of accuracy.

God Bless,
J.D. the "Who Woulda thunk it" guy.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2009, 09:33:16 PM by J.D. »

Daryl

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2009, 08:20:45 PM »
JC - I guess you painfully found out to never use maple for a ramrod.  Even Ramin is poor, but better than maple. Hickory is the best rod material, even if growth rings run out the side of the rod. The reason is the 'glue' in the wood that keeps the early growth and late growth together is stronger than all other woods we use for rods.  Taylor and I both used Ramin for years when a source of hickory was dry & they worked OK. Ramin breaks straight across the shaft, leaving a blunt top, while maple splinters, but then, so does hickory.

You've seen the video how I put the hole on the starget knob over the rod and give it a thump with my palm to seat the ball on the powder and give it a bit of compression. I do this the same every time. Once, at Hefley Creek Rondy, I decided to just give it a thump with my palm. The blunt end of the rod stuck into my palm, but stopped before breaking the bones on the back of my palm.  Of course I realized what happened, instantly, and said - "Look at this" - and pulled my hand up - the rod came up as it was stuck in my Palm - pretty funny, eh? We a strip of clean patch material and wound it up, then continued on the trail walk.  It was amazing the blunt end of the rod parting the flesh that way - IT happens.

With .015" or .016" round bottomed rifling, a .445" ball and .023" patch should work just fine, ie: Rice, Getz, etc.  In a .010" to .012" flat bottomed it will be OK if the crown is properly shaped.  Really deep coning doesn't seem to work well with really tight loads as the long slow squeezing seems to be more difficult than with a quick punch (heel or palm) on the starter's knob using a short radiused crown. We found this with LB's coned rifle.  The shorter, smooth crown, same depth of rifling and calibre allowed using an even thicker patch with the same ball, yet was very difficult to load and seat in his barrel.  This result was opposite to what I would have thought would happen.  "You learn something every day", certainly fit in this instance. I was referring to using a .400" ball in a .40. My bore is .398", while his is supposed to be .40". Mine was easy to load with a .020" patch, while his difficult with a .015" patch - using the same .400" ball.  The only difference I can figure is my slightly wider grooves, yet my bore was smaller than the ball itself. Different crown shape - mine more like a bullet swaging die, his, a slow cone that increases overall friction. The cone helps, it seems, with slightly looser combinations, but not with tight ones.  With a radius crown, the ball with patch is swaged into a perfect fit over a very short distance in a controlled manner, not being slowling swaged over a long gradual surface.  That's the only explanation I can give.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2009, 09:43:58 PM »
 ;D  Cal44walker, I think you have gotten good advice from a bunch of experienced bp shooters.  I'll just add my penny or two pennies worth.  As a general rule the "slower the twist, the heavier powder charge needed" and the faster the twist, the "lighter the charge for accuracy"; true, but.  Rifling depth and type also come into play.  Faster twists are more forgiving and usually do okay (up to a point).  Slower twists (.45 & up, say), DO usually shoot better at the higher velocities.  Anything much under a twist of, say, 40 - 48 inches (again in the larger calibers) is not going to do as well with prb, IMO.  .32 - .40 do better WITH a bit faster twist of around 48" plus or minus.  Keep in mind that 60" - 66" in not really that slow of a twist and will stabilize larger prb and often conicals.  Where problems really seem to crop up are the 72" and in that neighborhood.  You don't really know till you try it in your own rifle.

As has been mentioned above, the deeper and wider the grooves, the bigger the ball you can use and the thicker the patch required, usually.  I normally prefer (in a .45, for instance) .440ball and a thicker patch.  the important thing is that the grooves be filled.  Shallow grooves demand thinner patches, usually.  A lot will depend on whether you want target accuracy or hunting accuracy, though they are not mutually exclusive.

So "go to it"!  Flintlock shooting is really not that complicated or difficult.  I've always been bothered more by the exploding cap on percussion guns than by the flash of a flint pan.  I just don't notice it.  Follow through is important; keep your sights aligned and don't be quick to bring your rifle down.  Keep it mounted a moment longer.

Well, I've gone on too long.  Hope I didn't muddy the water.  Just wanted to second the info on this thread & say "Amen".   
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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cal44walker

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2009, 09:55:34 PM »
Well, it didn't go well at all today. 445 ball, 0.023 lubed patch and wiping between shots to remove that variable from testing. The best load was 75 grains 3fg swiss which grouped 10 shots in a 12 x 12 inch area at 50 yards off a rest......not great at all. I'm going to go down the 440 ball route for further testing next week and see what difference that makes. Oh, yea. What is the solution to stop the flashhole liner from seizing in its hole. I used lithium grease and blackpowder lube on the threads but the liner stuck on both occasions as I tried to remove it. The threads were full of bp residue when I finally got them out. Copper grease, maybey?

Offline hanshi

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2009, 10:13:33 PM »
 ;D  I use Gorilla Grease but you'll always have a struggle getting the liner out.  Actually, there's no real need to take it out when you clean the gun; just one more hassle.  If you take it out make sure the liner is well coned; after that don't worry about it.  If you need to enlarge the vent hole you don't have to remove the liner to do that.  My .45 is from TVM and shoots well with a range of powder charges.  Since I'm more interested in easy loading, a .440 ball & pillow ticking work well for me.  Pillow ticking & denim both are nice and thick and work very well for me.  My gun does well with .445 ball but I like .440 better.  I THINK my bbl twist is 1 - 60".

Try getting someone else who's familiar with flintlock shooting to try your gun.  You may be "pan flinching" or not following through.  Also try shooting off a bench as well as from a field position and see what happens.
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2009, 10:22:42 PM »
Quote
What is the solution to stop the flashhole liner from seizing in its hole.
The only time you remove a liner is when you have to replace it.
Quit fooling with it.
Dave Kanger

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J.D.

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2009, 11:39:13 PM »
Another thought, since you mentioned removing the liner.

Since the screw slot provides a recess for the touch hole, coning the outside of the liner helps to improve ignition. Drill to the depth of the screw slot with a 1/4", or so, dia drill bit. It is important to stop drilling at the bottom of the screw slot. Don't wanna open that hole up too much, now do we?

This won't remove the screw slot, so you can still remove the liner, when necessary.

Another thought, what is the diameter of the touch hole? Some liners have a hole smaller than .062, so you might want to open the TH a bit. Try a 1/16 dia drill bit, first, then shoot it long enough to determine if the TH needs to be larger.

If that doesn't improve speed and reliability of ignition, try a # 51 drill to open the TH to .067. I wouldn't use a TH larger than .067 dia. in a 45. I suspect that too much gas will be vented with a larger TH, causing a further loss of accuracy.

That said, a coned, 1/16 " dia TH should be large enough to provide good, reliable ignition.

Just kinda think'n...typn' out loud, so to speak...type.

God Bless,
J.D.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 12:48:28 AM by J.D. »

Offline hanshi

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2009, 12:07:23 AM »
ZACTLY!!  What TOF & J.D. said.  And like I mentioned earlier "forgedaboutit!
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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Offline JCKelly

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2009, 01:51:23 AM »
If speed of ignition is a concern, I might mention that the Steve Zihn .54 cal. pistol I just got has a 0.050" dia touch hole in a permanent liner. Liner is coned inside the barrel, flush outside. Gave fast ignition with FFFFg Du Pont, but with Swiss NullB it shoots fast as a capgun.
And Daryl, it is to Mr. D. Pedersoli you might want to send your admonition about maple rods. I have always used hickory myself, until I needed a 9mm rod to replace the factory rod dangling from my hand. Cal44 you might want to replace your .32 Pedersoli rod with something more substantial in advance of any difficulties.
I have always been too impatient to follow that  very good advice about dry firing with a wood driver, then moving up to priming only. I believe it is what one should do, but  . . .
I got over flinching due to: 1 At Old Westmoreland Rifles in the '60's the flint match was at the end of the day. So I shot against capguns until the end. 2. My standards of decent ignition must have been lower then, as I recall a lot of click, click, click before BANG ever happened. Especially in a drizzle. So by the time Bang happened, and by the time the flint match came I was just too tired to flinch. "Bang" was always a surprise. Now in the last match all the caplock guys had suddenly to use a flinter, and on that account I with my mediocre shooting could on occasion beat the national champion of the day. Won a lot of turkeys fall of '70 when I was laid off, all with flintlock. Wife got tired of looking at them. 

Daryl

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2009, 03:53:12 AM »
JC- as TOf and Flintr noted, leave the vent in the gun. The more it is removed, and replaced, the looser it's going to get. There should be no fouling in threads that are made correctly. That vent sounds almost as if it's getting ready to start leaking.  I'd have someone re-thread and put in a White lightening liner and be done with liner trouble.  Drilling the new vent out to .062" is a good idea in the interests of ignition.

Always battling hangfires is a good way to get out of a flinching habit.

cal44walker

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2009, 09:25:26 PM »
Finally!!!!!
I ordered some flints and ox yoke patches from track of the wolf a feww weeks ago and they finally arrived today. I decided to experiment with patch thickness instead of powder loads to find out what was going on. I chose a 440 ball and 3 different patches: 0.015 cotton,0.018 denim and  0.020 cotton and shot 5 shots with each. Loading were 40 to 60 grains Swiss 3fg in 5 grain increments. The loads where I could push the ball and patch down without a mallet shot very well with 45 grains and the tighter fitting loads did the usual shotgun patterns. This rifle is seriously fussy but I'm closing in on a really good load for it now. Best group was 440 ball with a 0.020 cotton ox yoke patch and 45 grains swiss 3fg. It shot 2" at 50 meters. Better than the 10" groups it was doing last time out. Seems this rifle likes the looser fitting loads. Anyone else have a rifle like that?

Daryl

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2009, 09:43:13 PM »
Finally!!!!!
 The loads where I could push the ball and patch down without a mallet shot very well with 45 grains and the tighter fitting loads did the usual shotgun patterns. 

Sounds like the tighter load's patches are being cut at the muzzle (mallet? what's the ---- is that???) and therefore shooting less accurately. This sounds as if the crown needs work  ie: emery cloth and your thumb. Rotate the barrel periodically to keep it concentric. It's easy and the benefits are way out of proportion to the effort required

Offline hanshi

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2009, 10:17:01 PM »
I agree; and you are probably deforming the ball as well.  I generally prefer a .440 ball and a strong, reasonably thick patch.  Of course I look at it from the standpoint of a hunter and want a quick, easy loading ball.  I'll have to say, though, I couldn't want (well, I could) for better accuracy.  My EV .50 will put 5 shots in 1&1/4" or less at 50yds with a .590 ball and pillow ticking patch.  That's from a non supported field position, too.  I think it can do even better but i can't.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

J.D.

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2009, 08:25:05 AM »

Sounds like the tighter load's patches are being cut at the muzzle (mallet? what's the ---- is that???) and therefore shooting less accurately. This sounds as if the crown needs work  ie: emery cloth and your thumb. Rotate the barrel periodically to keep it concentric. It's easy and the benefits are way out of proportion to the effort required

My experience  confirms Daryl's thoughts. Funnel the muzzle just enough to remove the sharp line delineating the crown from the bore. That slight modification to the crown made loading much easier, and groups much better.

God Bless,
J.D.

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Pedersoli Pennsylvania accuracy
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2009, 12:25:43 AM »
Glad to see this post, encouraging. Will try .440 again w different patch/lube stuff in my Pedersoli Frontier (one whose ramrod I had tucked into my flesh last fall). Might use FFg Swiss rather than FFFg, but I sure do like Swiss. Including NullB priming.

So, Cal44--what patch lube did you use?