Correct lock for a Hawken?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Slight departure from the gist of this thread...David Rase:  I see you used the forward tang screw to pass through the bow of the trigger guard.  Clever!

[David Rase]

Slight departure from the gist of this thread...David Rase:  I see you used the forward tang screw to pass through the bow of the trigger guard.  Clever!

Taylor,
What you are seeing is a partially completed repair.  The cast stud for threading the triggerguard into the long bar triggerplate had a huge porosity in it and snapped off during threading.  In the photo is the piece of cut off threaded bolt that had yet to be ground down, welded and filed to contour.  Good eye though, I must say.  You are the Hawken whisperer.
David  

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Oh, I see.  I saw the alignment layout lines on the wood and assumed it was for the tang screw.  Another clever system, often employed by English makers is to thread the tang screw into the trigger guard's threaded boss, rather than running it into the trigger plate.  And often, they used an integral boss on the plate to receive both the tang screw and the guard. 

[Don Stith]

Don, is this the kind of lock that you would use on a full  stock Hawken if you were making one in flint?

THat would be a good lock for a number of applications. I have seen a number of originl rifles with that style lock

[rich pierce]

One could convert a percussion lock to flint, I suppose.  Lot of work though.  Maybe easier to cut off and replace the completely waterproof pan on the L&R English lock with the double throated cock.

[JoeG]

I have used L&R's double throated cock on a large Siler lock.The large Siler and L&R have the same throw. Chamber's lock uses large Siler internals so the L&R will fit it.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

This is the L & R lock I used on a Don Stith J & S Hawken parts set.  Plate and cock were pack hardened in the forge.  This rifle was lost in a fire, unfortunately.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I would like to make an observation for what it is worth.  The Smithsonian Hawken rifle has a lock plate that at one time was a flintlock.  That is without dispute.  You will notice that it, like the Golcher lock pictured above, doesn't have a bevel filed into the plate - it rests flush with the wood.  I amplified the bevel on the lock in the picture I posted.  It would have been valid to make the plate perfectly flat.

[okieboy]

 Don sells two different J S style rifles, or did you just get hardware without the wood? Inquiring minds want to know!

[Joe S.]

I would like to make an observation for what it is worth.  The Smithsonian Hawken rifle has a lock plate that at one time was a flintlock.  That is without dispute.  You will notice that it, like the Golcher lock pictured above, doesn't have a bevel filed into the plate - it rests flush with the wood.  I amplified the bevel on the lock in the picture I posted.  It would have been valid to make the plate perfectly flat.

That is an interesting observation Taylor.Seems some of the offerings for flint hawken rifles have a plate with that recessed tail end setting up the bevel detail to be added and the plate stand proud.I would think the boys influences their father and other Maryland builders that used details like yours on their flint plates would carry on.Darn shame we don't have an actual flint hawken to help end some of the quess work.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Above is a picture of the Hawken rifle that resides in the Smithsonian.  The rifle was made by S. Hawken.  Two observations regarding the lock...it appears to me to be original to the rifle, and second, it is definitely a flint plate.  It is flat to the stock without a filed bevel, and has the remnants of a flash fence typical of English locks with so called waterproof pans.  I love this rifle...it says lots!!

[Bob Roller]

Above is a picture of the Hawken rifle that resides in the Smithsonian.  The rifle was made by S. Hawken.  Two observations regarding the lock...it appears to me to be original to the rifle, and second, it is definitely a flint plate.  It is flat to the stock without a filed bevel, and has the remnants of a flash fence typical of English locks with so called waterproof pans.  I love this rifle...it says lots!!

If there is a recessed area for a flint cock in the stock above the lock mortise.If there is then it probably was a flintlock when new.

Bob Roller

[okieboy]

 If there is a cock recess, it certainly is not visible in this photograph.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Not all flint arms were cut out for the cock to stop on the plate.  Double throated cocks often stopped when the lower jaw struck the fence.  I restored an Irish pocket pistol years ago that had a French cock, stopped on the plate, and had no cut away in the wood for the cock.

[Robert Wolfe]

That lock seems crudely cut out for the drum that it doesn't appear to me that it was done as well as the first class work I would expect from the Hawken shop. Am I missing something?

[Don Stith]

The Smithsonian rifle may have been made after Sam left for Denver
 Architecture is very late and it has some strange construction features. One that I thought the strangest was the use of screws from inside the barrel channel to hold the ramrod thimbles in place
 The School of the Ozarks  or Kennett rifle has that feature too

[Boompa]

That lock seems crudely cut out for the drum that it doesn't appear to me that it was done as well as the first class work I would expect from the Hawken shop. Am I missing something?

     Yes, pretty crude. Maybe someone other than Sam did the conversion to cap? 

[Dphariss]

That lock seems crudely cut out for the drum that it doesn't appear to me that it was done as well as the first class work I would expect from the Hawken shop. Am I missing something?

     Yes, pretty crude. Maybe someone other than Sam did the conversion to cap? 

It was likely converted a long way from St Louis. There is no way to doubt it was flint originally.
Remember the Hawken Shop would built what you wanted so long has you had the cash. I would have to look it up (and the books are all packed) but did not Hanson write that the Hawken Shop was till buying Flintlock locks in the 1850s?

Dan

[Dphariss]

Not all flint arms were cut out for the cock to stop on the plate.  Double throated cocks often stopped when the lower jaw struck the fence.  I restored an Irish pocket pistol years ago that had a French cock, stopped on the plate, and had no cut away in the wood for the cock.

As Taylor indicates, the later FLs may not require  cock clearance cut into the wood.
By the 1800 or so locks that stopped the cock on the fence and internally on the bridle at the same time were being made. So by the time that Jake started in St Louis they were fairly common on the better quality locks coming from England.

Dan

[Robert Wolfe]

Thanks for the explanation. I thought some had argued that the gun left the Hawken shop as a percussion rifle built on a flintlock plate.

[Bob Roller]

Not all flint arms were cut out for the cock to stop on the plate.  Double throated cocks often stopped when the lower jaw struck the fence.  I restored an Irish pocket pistol years ago that had a French cock, stopped on the plate, and had no cut away in the wood for the cock.

The cock hitting the flash fence and hoping the bridle will hold may be OK for an occasional shot but I would think a competition shooter would beat the lock up badly.. I have seen old Manton locks beat up like this and
see no reason to copy it.

Bob Roller

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

It is hard to know the thinking at the time Bob.  Something to think about  is this:  when a cock stops on its shoulder on the edge of the plate, there is a terrific tendency for the top of the cock with the screw, top jaw and flint, to keep on going.  Many flint cocks are broken in the neck because of this.  The reinforced cock was the answer to this problem, or at least, it certainly helped.  The bottom jaw of a reinforced cock does become battered by striking the fence, and the tumbler bridle inside the lock takes up the energy too.  But that's the way they did it.

The conversion of the Smithsonian rifle is as rough as it could be...definitely not the work of Sam Hawken.  Also, I find it almost unbelievable that Sam would use an old lock plate to make a new rifle, when everything else on the rifle is of such expectedly high quality.

Don, I hear you being inconclusive as to the original ignition system of this rifle....Myself, I'm satisfied that the rifle started life as a flintlock.

[Bob Roller]

It is hard to know the thinking at the time Bob.  Something to think about  is this:  when a cock stops on its shoulder on the edge of the plate, there is a terrific tendency for the top of the cock with the screw, top jaw and flint, to keep on going.  Many flint cocks are broken in the neck because of this.  The reinforced cock was the answer to this problem, or at least, it certainly helped.  The bottom jaw of a reinforced cock does become battered by striking the fence, and the tumbler bridle inside the lock takes up the energy too.  But that's the way they did it.

The conversion of the Smithsonian rifle is as rough as it could be...definitely not the work of Sam Hawken.  Also, I find it almost unbelievable that Sam would use an old lock plate to make a new rifle, when everything else on the rifle is of such expectedly high quality.

Don, I hear you being inconclusive as to the original ignition system of this rifle....Myself, I'm satisfied that the rifle started life as a flintlock.

I have made a bunch of locks with the double throated or reinforced cock that stopped on the top of the lock plate. It was a Ketland and as far as I know I am the only one that used these parts.There were no internals that were useable for it so a bench crafted lock it became.Possible also was the frizzen acting as a brake and stopped the self destruction of the locks after the second shot. I think the goose neck cocks that break are today a bad casting. Back in "The day"I don't know.

Bob Roller

[Dphariss]

Thanks for the explanation. I thought some had argued that the gun left the Hawken shop as a percussion rifle built on a flintlock plate.

The hooked breech is a "patent" flint breech with a drum installed in the vent hole location. The Hawken shop would not have done this. There are people at least in the past, with a vested interest in all  developed Hawken plains/mountain rifles being percussion since that was what they had been claiming for years. So finding one that was possibly flint originally upset their apple cart.  
Given that the American Fur Co. would not even order or accept percussion rifles From Henry before the mid-1830s indicates that the Hawken shop SURELY had to make SOME FLs in the 1830s. But people don't like to admit it.  There were people in the 1840s that were told not to take a percussion rifle during their western migration since the FL was more reliable and flints were easier to get than caps.
A GOOD FL gives away little to the percussion system. When people think of the percussion system they tend to look at todays system. This was not really finalized until well into what many consider the "persussion era". The FL by 1810 was completely "debugged" and the good ones were very reliable, in 1830 the percussion system was still new.
Dan

[Dphariss]

Not all flint arms were cut out for the cock to stop on the plate.  Double throated cocks often stopped when the lower jaw struck the fence.  I restored an Irish pocket pistol years ago that had a French cock, stopped on the plate, and had no cut away in the wood for the cock.

The cock hitting the flash fence and hoping the bridle will hold may be OK for an occasional shot but I would think a competition shooter would beat the lock up badly.. I have seen old Manton locks beat up like this and
see no reason to copy it.

Bob Roller

The shotguns in England used to get a lot of use. I have a Rifle Shoppe Manton lock that I had to build most of the internals for an it stops on the bridle and the fence I suspect its been shot several hundred rounds and has been snapped some as well. It shows no distress. But I don't shoot it anymore due to recoil (its a 16 bore) and other reasons.

Dan